Evidence of meeting #9 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christian Pearce  Criminal Defence Counsel, Author, As an Individual
Keith Loh  President, Port Coquitlam & District Hunting & Fishing Club
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Wassim Bouanani
David Bertrand  Chief Inspector, Service des enquêtes criminelles, Service de police de la Ville de Montréal
Matthew Hipwell  President, Wolverine Supplies

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number nine of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk will advise the chair on whose hands are up, to the best of his ability, and we will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House of Commons on Tuesday, December 7, 2021, and the motion adopted on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs.

With us today by video conference, as an individual, is Christian Pearce, criminal defence counsel and author. Representing the Port Coquitlam and District Hunting and Fishing Club, we have Keith Loh, president.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Welcome to all.

I now invite Mr. Pearce to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Sir, the floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

Christian Pearce Criminal Defence Counsel, Author, As an Individual

Thank you for having me, sir. I'll try to cut right to the point.

As the chair has just indicated, I started out as an author. I was a journalist for many years, which culminated in a book about gun culture and violence from a hip-hop perspective, titled Enter the Babylon System: Unpacking Gun Culture from Samuel Colt to 50 Cent. We had a co-author who allocated a lot of the book to what's called “diversion”. Diversion is a process by which legal guns turn into illegal guns, largely through theft.

As I did research for the book, diversion became, somewhat surprisingly, such a huge factor in the availability of illegal firearms. I presumed—and it's still a factor, obviously—that most guns were coming from the United States. They're trafficked across the border, but I think about 50% of crime guns start as legal guns owned by legitimate Canadian gun owners. They are then stolen or otherwise find themselves into the black market and become crime guns to be used for crime.

As a criminal defence lawyer, I've seen that problem manifest repeatedly over the 11 years that I've been practising. When guns are found in my clients' hands or at crime scenes, I tend to think I'm going to see that they're traced back to the U.S., but what I see most of the time is that those guns came from legitimate Canadian gun owners.

My view of the situation is the one way that Parliament can really address gun availability, because that's the easier side of the gun crime problem, is through a complete ban on handguns. Handguns are implicated in the crime gun problem in Toronto 95% of the time and up. There is simply no legitimate, arguable reason that I have heard in researching the book and thinking about this issue over time, that justifies the possession of handguns merely for sport and collection purposes, when the downside risk is that those guns fall into the hands of criminals and end up being used to create the kind of carnage that we see on Toronto streets and in other cities around the country.

It's an unfortunate reality, but diversion is an extremely significant issue and the only way to address it is by cutting out the availability on the legal side. They may be coming from theft from production facilities, as we saw at Para Ordnance many years ago, truck theft, as we saw just a few days ago in Peterborough—fortunately those guns were recovered—or primarily theft from legitimate gun owners, who keep safe stocks of firearms. They become targets for break and enters to be stolen and to be turned over to criminals at elevated prices to be used in all sorts of crime.

Diversion is the biggest thing that Parliament can focus on to address the gun crime issue. Again, the way you address that issue is by following up on the assault rifle ban with a handgun ban. There is simply no reason that I can think of that would justify the possession of handguns on the scale that we have in Canada by legitimate gun owners when the risk to our society is theft of those guns to be used in crime. It's a big problem and I see it everyday as a criminal defence lawyer; my client is in possession of guns that started out as being legitimately owned, but are now being used to carry, shoot and kill people on the streets of my city.

If not to go that far, Parliament could consider a cap on handgun ownership. It's one thing that you can argue for sport shooting purposes. People may have a pastime, they may enjoy it, they may wish to go to the shooting range and open fire with a handgun, and that's something to be considered. The value you put in that is one thing, but them having five, 10 or 20 handguns defies any rational argument when the risk is that those guns will be stolen in aggregate globally and then become crime guns on the street.

I've talked to weapon—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Sir, please wrap it up in 10 seconds.

11:15 a.m.

Criminal Defence Counsel, Author, As an Individual

Christian Pearce

Sure.

I've spoken to weapons enforcement officers, and they highlight the issue with break and enters of legitimate gun owners who are targeted by organized crime for theft of their weapons to be turned into crime guns on the black market.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you very much.

Mr. Loh, I now invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes, sir.

11:15 a.m.

Keith Loh President, Port Coquitlam & District Hunting & Fishing Club

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the committee members for inviting me to speak on behalf of licensed gun owners and the members of my club.

My name is Keith Loh. I am the president of the Port Coquitlam & District Hunting & Fishing Club. We are a non-profit society and shooting range serving the metro Vancouver area, including the riding represented by Mr. McKinnon, who has given us his valuable time on this issue on more than one occasion.

Our range serves over 3,000 active members who engage in sport shooting, hunting, fishing and archery. We are one of the largest outdoor ranges in B.C., and we are a training centre for multiple law enforcement agencies, including the RCMP and the police forces of most of the cities in the Lower Mainland. Similarly, our members are drawn from all the major urban centres. We are urban firearms owners who are in the same communities that are impacted by gang crime. I am a hunter and a competitive shooter.

Mesdames and messieurs, our members share concerns of what appears to be the growing incidence of open gang violence in our communities. Like all Canadians, we wonder why people turn to the gangster lifestyle, and we applaud constructive efforts to put a stop to gang violence and address the root causes that promote gang activity.

Where possible, we co-operate with the police. We vet our members, and we instruct them on the safe and legal use of firearms. We rely on the same licensing conventions that our government uses, which should prevent criminals from gaining access to firearms. When needed, we raise concerns with the chief firearms officer of B.C. and are bound to report illegality that we witness.

Our club has always had active and retired law enforcement officers serving as staff and on our volunteer board of directors. In short, we are a place where gangsters would probably want to be the furthest away from.

I would suggest to the committee that legal firearm owners are fully supportive of constructive efforts against gangs, against illegal trafficking and towards social changes that would deter those away from the gang lifestyle. However, recent efforts by the federal government appear to be aimed improperly at licensed gun owners, who are among the most vetted citizens in the country, targeting those who are fully onside against gangs.

Among the suggested changes were giving cities and provinces the ability to restrict firearms while ignoring the fact that gang members pass freely from one jurisdiction to the next and already disregard laws against illegally transporting firearms or owning them without a license.

You have likely heard that the vast majority of so-called crime guns are flooding through our borders from the United States and elsewhere. Somehow, despite all the background checks on Canadian owners and controls on how licensees buy and sell firearms legitimately, criminals are apparently able to get what they need to support their gang business through foreign sources. Perhaps the committee should ask why, even during COVID, strict border controls and a population that was largely locked down, guns from abroad continued to stream through our border and show up at crime scenes.

In the case of straw purchasing, the public should know that, for anyone desperate enough to use their licence to traffic in firearms, the government already has all the details needed to prosecute them. Indeed, in the case of restricted firearms, which include hand guns, the government has to approve every purchase. If the problem is domestic trafficking, if that was an issue, shouldn't we ask instead if the police have the resources to pursue investigations?

Finally, a gun buyback of legal firearms that were used safely and legally for sporting and hunting, such as by our members, punishes those who already have to pass screening and who already have to abide by laws against improper usage.

It is not clear what evidence the government has had that this will impact gangsters who, if they choose to, could smuggle those guns in or have them manufactured. The fact is, gangsters are not using the $3,000 competition rifles that our members may lose in a buyback. All that will be accomplished is that our sport will be diminished at a cost to the public purse. A gun buyback could cost Canadians hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, decreasing our wealth while our systems are already straining.

I ask the committee to think about how the money proposed for such ideas like the gun buyback could be better used towards stopping the smuggling of illegal firearms or how regions could use those funds instead to attack the source of urban violence by funding housing for our most vulnerable, to help mitigate drug abuse, or to properly fund our courts and policing. How much better would it be if we used our taxpayer dollars for the strengthening of our borders, putting money towards community programs that steer people away from the gang lifestyle and providing better access to mental health resources to those at risk? These are the measures I believe would unite Canadians, and I urge the committee to direct their efforts to exploring those areas.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you very much.

Now I will open the floor to questions.

Leading off in the first round, we have Ms. Dancho.

It's over to you for a six-minute slot.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to speak slowly given my connectivity issues.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their interesting testimony.

Unfortunately, as the witnesses and all committee members will know, we are dealing with a historic situation in our country. The federal government has just introduced emergency powers. For that reason I'm introducing and moving the following motion:

That the committee instruct the Chair to schedule any meetings required to hear from the Minister of Public Safety, officials, as well as CBSA, the RCMP, the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service next week on February 23rd and 24th, and that if a requested witness or organization does not appear, the chair shall add a portion of committee business at the next available meeting to discuss the non-appearance of the witness or organization.

Mr. Clerk, I'm not sure if the translation came through, but I'm very happy to read it in French if required.

11:20 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Wassim Bouanani

That's good, Ms. Dancho.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

It came through.

Okay, so I'm formally introducing and moving this motion for debate and a vote.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, I see your hand up. Go ahead, please.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you to Ms. Dancho for presenting this motion.

I've just had the clerk distribute an amendment to Ms. Dancho's motion that I'm proposing. It is there, I believe, in both official languages. It would make some slight changes: inserting the language “That, pursuant to the motion adopted on February 15th, 2022”—so that we have a base of reference—“the committee request that Chair, subject to the availability of the witnesses”, and then giving the chair a few more options with the dates next week.

I don't want to confuse everyone by reading it out. Everyone should have a copy of the proposed amendment in front of them, so I'll leave it there. That's the amendment to the motion I'm now moving, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

I see a hand up from Mr. McKinnon.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I appreciate this motion and the amendment. I think they're important things to discuss. However, we do have witnesses before us at the moment. In respect of those witnesses, I therefore move that the debate be now adjourned.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Are you saying the debate be suspended or adjourned?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

It's a dilatory motion. I move the debate do now adjourn.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Okay. Then we have to vote on the motion to adjourn.

Mr. Clerk.

11:25 a.m.

An hon. member

I have a point of order.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

I see Ms. Damoff has her hand up. I'll recognize her.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

That was on the motion, Chair. My apologies, there are no points of order on a dilatory motion.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Correct, so we will have to vote on the motion to adjourn.

Go ahead, Mr. Clerk.

11:25 a.m.

The Clerk

Mr. Chair, there's a point of order.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm a substitute here, and I'm pleased to be here.

For this motion, I was under the understanding that you can't adjourn the debate; you have to suspend. We need clarity on what the motion is. We're not sure.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

The motion is perfectly clear. The motion is that I move that this debate do now adjourn.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

A motion to adjourn debate is not debatable.

Mr. Clerk, I believe you have to call a vote on the motion to adjourn.