Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

I don't see any hands up.

If you don't see any hands up in the room, Clerk, then we can proceed to the vote on the motion as amended.

[The Clerk]

The question is on the motion, moved by Ms. Dancho, as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, members of the committee. That was an excellent exchange.

We will suspend the meeting so that sound checks can be done for our new witnesses.

Take five, and we'll come back and use the time remaining to the top of the hour for this next group of witnesses.

See you in five.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I call this meeting back to order.

With us this second hour by video conference is Chief Inspector David Bertrand.

Mr. Bertrand now represents the Service des enquêtes criminelles of the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal.

From Wolverine Supplies, we have Matthew Hipwell, president.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Welcome to our witnesses.

Mr. Bertrand, I now invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[David Bertrand, Chief Inspector, Service des enquêtes criminelles, Service de police de la Ville de Montréal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon.

Thank you for the invitation to share with you some of the efforts of the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal, or SPVM, has made to fight against gun violence.

The city of Montreal is one of Canada's large urban centres. It's often compared to other major North American cities such as Toronto.

In recent years, violent events involving firearms have tended to be on the rise, particularly so over the past year.

In Montreal, the number of events involving the discharge of a firearm has increased from 89 in 2020 to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Bertrand, the interpreters can't keep up with your pace of speaking. They're requesting that you please slow down. No one is going to give you a ticket, but please slow down.

[David Bertrand]

I'm sorry about that.

In Montreal, the number of events involving the discharge of a firearm increased from 89 in 2020 to 129 in 2021. In contrast, there were 32 in 2019. The number of murders by firearm increased from five in 2020 to 19 in 2021.

Nevertheless, Montreal remains a safe city, as the SPVM puts a lot of effort into ensuring the safety of Montreal residents.

The number of firearms arrests has also risen from 213 in 2019 to 308 in 2020, and 330 in 2021. It's important to understand that firearms investigations are complex and demanding for those who conduct them, particularly because of the legal requirements that must be met. Evidence relies heavily on investigative techniques, as few witnesses and victims cooperate in these types of investigations.

For example, the SPVM has set up various teams, including an anti-gun trafficking team, the ELTA, which has now become the EILTA, a team integrated with the Centaur strategy, the provincial strategy to combat firearms trafficking.

As for firearms seizure in Montreal, 1,017 weapons were seized in 2020, including 269 handguns. In 2021, although the total number of guns seized was slightly lower, at 963, 360 of them were handguns. It is this higher number that caught our eye as this is the most common type of weapon used in violent events. We're talking about a 34% increase for this type of weapon.

We have made several observations. Illegal firearms have become more accessible in recent years in partricular. Even gun dealers sometimes do business in public, in broad daylight. We've also noted a stronger presence of firearms among youth. There is a sense of impunity, a strong gun culture, an ll of these factors partly explain this gun craze emphasis on gun possession. Finally, shows of force are prized and advocated within crime groups. In short, aand the increase we've seen in violent events involving firearms.

We also need to adapt to new realities, which include crime groups using social media to flaunt their lifestyle and challenge their opponents. It's important to focus on this usage.

To address gun violence in Montreal, the SPVM has a strategic plan that mobilizes police officers around short-, medium- and long-term action. The plan rests on two pillars: an integrated and concerted strategy, and a commitment from all stakeholders.

The plan is structured around five main thrusts. We want to ensure cooperation within our organization, but also with other police agencies. Combatting gun violence is a shared responsibility. The goal is to make people feel safer. Our constable force ensure an optimal street presence; our inspector force optimize the structure of investigations and partnership with other policing agencies; our intelligence force focus on making investigations—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Sorry, sir, could you wrap up in 10 seconds, please.

[David Bertrand]

Yes, no problem.

In conclusion, we believe that stronger legislation to ban handguns is needed. We also support better control at the border and investigation of firearms smuggling tactics. In addition, we believe that discussions about minimum sentences in certain gun usage and possession situations should be brought back to the forefront.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Hipwell, you now have the floor for up to five minutes for your opening remarks. Please proceed when you're ready.

[Matthew Hipwell, President, Wolverine Supplies]

Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity to speak this morning.

My name is Matt Hipwell. I grew up in the firearms industry and lifestyle in rural Manitoba. As a youth, I was involved in various shooting sports. I was a member of Team Manitoba in the Canada Winter Games for the sport of biathlon. I spent a short stint in the Canadian Armed Forces reserves prior to joining the RCMP. I spent nearly 17 years in the RCMP, posted throughout Manitoba. During that time, it was front line policing, plain clothes drug enforcement, firearms training and use of force, and eight years with our emergency response teams. I feel I have a very diverse background in this sector, whether it be on the civilian side or the law enforcement side.

After leaving the RCMP, I joined the family business, Wolverine Supplies. I subsequently took an early retirement to move into the firearms industry, which supports and provides firearms to sports shooters, hunters, recreational shooters, law enforcement and the military across the country.

Historically, the government has spent billions of dollars on firearms legislation and regulations. However, in my opinion, we fail to get to the root cause. Mr. Bertrand touched on a few of those, with borders being one of them. We need to get to the root cause of the problem. When we want to solve a problem, using the analogy of building a house, we don't start with the roof and build down; we start with a strong foundation. I believe this is where we are lacking. We need to start at the bottom and work our way up.

This involves working with all partners. We often look at the law enforcement community only—if that—but there are the border and border services, the police and social services, whether they're child and family services. There are all of those different avenues that we need to be speaking with.

One partner that often gets overlooked is the industry. Our Canadian firearms industry is wide and diverse, just like our country is. There is a lot of expertise. There's a lot of knowledge across the country. This is overlooked when it comes to firearms regulations, licensing and so forth. We need to involve everyone, so that we can come up with the best common-sense solutions that will lead all Canadians to lead a safe lifestyle.

Currently, we have firearms regulations before Parliament. One is the order in council that prohibited over 1,500 types of firearms. As we've just heard, however, what has that stopped? Firearms violence has not stopped. It is still continuing. The legislation in place only affects the legal owners and the legal firearms that the government knows about and where they are. We need to get to a strategy that gets to the root. We need to look at the rationale, and we need to be consistent along that.

As was just spoken about, we have legislation that reduces sentences for violent offences. For example, under Bill C-5, some of the proposals are reducing mandatory minimum sentences for the offences of using a firearm or an imitation firearm, possession of a firearm while knowing it's unauthorized, possession of a weapon obtained by a crime and, one that leads back to our borders, importing or exporting knowing it's unauthorized. If we're reducing these mandatory minimum sentences, we are failing to hold people and individuals accountable for their actions. We need to get that accountability back and hold people accountable.

Along with this, I recently observed through CTV News an exposé on the homicide rates in Toronto. In Toronto this year, in 2022, there have been 12 victims, seven of whom were under the age of 25 and five of whom were under the age of 20. Out of the 17 people charged, 14 were under the age of 23 and eight were under the age of 20. This ties in with your social media and everything else being longer and longer.

We need to get to the root cause. Some of the legislation that's in place has been in place for years and has failed to reduce gun violence as it was originally intended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much. You have five seconds to give us your most important last thought.

[Matthew Hipwell]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My most important last thought is to get to the root cause and to work together to have common-sense regulations that can be enforced and keep Canadians safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, I'm looking at the clock. We're at 20 minutes until the end of the session. I think what would make sense is to go one round, and if we go one round with the full six minutes each, we'll be over the time by just a few minutes. That seems to make sense.

Are there any comments from the committee?

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, our thoughts are that perhaps we could have two rounds with these witnesses. We haven't had a lot of questioning today and I'm sure we'll be tight and we'll be short on our recommendations in our third hour.

Would that be at all possible to do two rounds and just take a little bit of the third hour?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm in the hands of the committee.

The suggestion is made that we go the full two rounds, which would cut our deliberations on advice in half.

I don't see any hands up.... Ms. Damoff is not in agreement. Are there other opinions? We don't have an agreement so we'll take it through one round and then suspend briefly and move into the third hour.

Ms. Dancho, go ahead with—

[A voice]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Yes?

[The Clerk]

I'm sorry, it's Mr. Shipley.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay, Mr. Shipley, it's all yours, go ahead for six minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'll start off with Mr. Hipwell.

Mr. Hipwell, this committee heard from Solomon Friedman, the foremost legal scholar and lawyer on firearms and firearms legislation, just this past February 10, that Canada needs a “top to bottom rethink of how we classify firearms”, and that we need two things in this classification system: (a) that it be evidenced-based and (b) that it be based upon function, not appearance.

Do you agree with Mr. Friedman's assessment?

[Matthew Hipwell]

Yes, if we use opinions, you can't defend an opinion. It needs to be factual and common sense just as described by Mr. Friedman.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

Based on that then, do you think the Liberal government's classification of assault guns is accurate?

[Matthew Hipwell]

No, I do not, because again appearance and opinion come into the factor, and it needs to be factual and evidence-based. Moreover, keep it simple so that everyone can clearly understand what it is. It makes everyone's jobs easier and simpler—everyone from the police to the manufacturers, to the owners, to the government, to the court system—rather than having these interpretations and opinions brought in.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Mr. Hipwell, you have quite an extensive knowledge of firearms. In your opinion how easy is it for a criminal to modify a firearm if they were to illegally obtain one?