Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Nadeau  President, Barreau du Québec
Lefebvre  Chairman and Co-founder, Crypto Québec
Dufresne  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Marchand  Member, Criminal Law Expert Group, Barreau du Québec
Le Grand Alary  Lawyer, Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs, Barreau du Québec
Neuenschwander  Senior Director, User Privacy and Child Safety, Apple Inc.
Israel  Director, Privacy, Surveillance and Technology Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Patell  Director, Government Affairs and Public Policy, Canada, Google
Charlet  Senior Director, Privacy, Safety and Security, Government Affairs and Public Policy, Google
Van Laer  Retired Staff Sergeant, Reservist, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Thomas Carrique  President, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
Brown  Mayor, City of Brampton
Smith  Senior Vice-President, Canadian Telecommunications Association
Ullock  Board Chair, Ontario Child Sexual Exploitation Investigators Association
Chief Nick Milinovich  Deputy Chief of Police, Peel Regional Police
Murray Rankin  Barristor and Solicitor, As an Individual

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Good morning, everyone. This meeting is called to order.

Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

If I may, I would like to move right away that we adopt the three budgets that the clerk sent last week. There was one for the study of the main estimates, a second for the study on the management of the Canada-United States border, and a third for the study of Bill C‑22, which we are continuing today.

As you know, the amounts that have been provided to us are estimates. The committee could spend less than planned. Any unspent funds will be returned to the Liaison Committee.

If you have any questions, the clerk will be happy to answer them.

Is it the committee's pleasure to adopt the three budgets?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

We will now move on to the main topic of our meeting today.

Pursuant to the House of Commons order of reference of April 20, 2026, we are meeting today for consideration of Bill C‑22, An Act Respecting Lawful Access.

Today we are fortunate to have with us many distinguished witnesses, whom I would like to welcome.

From the Barreau du Québec, we welcome Marcel‑Olivier Nadeau, president of the Barreau du Québec, who is joining us by video conference; Nicolas Le Grand Alary, lawyer from the Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs, who is with us; and Michel Marchand, member of the Criminal Law Expert Group, who is joining us by video conference.

We also welcome Luc Lefebvre, chair and co-founder of Crypto Québec; as well as Philippe Dufresne and Marc Chénier, from the Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada.

I want to welcome each and every one of you back. You will each have the floor for five minutes for your presentations.

Mr. Marcel‑Olivier Nadeau, you have the floor.

Marcel-Olivier Nadeau President, Barreau du Québec

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for having us here today.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Marcel‑Olivier Nadeau, and I am the president of the Barreau du Québec. I am accompanied by Michel Marchand, a member of the Criminal Law Experts Group, and Nicolas Le Grand Alary, a lawyer with the Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs of the Barreau.

The Barreau du Québec thanks you for inviting us to take part in the consultations on Bill C‑22. Let us recall that the mission of the Barreau du Québec is to protect the public, to promote accessible justice and to defend the rule of law. It is in that capacity that we are speaking today.

To begin, I would like to remind you of a fundamental principle. The concept of the rule of law is at the heart of our democracy. It requires that state powers be exercised, particularly in criminal investigations, within a framework, predictably and subject to independent judicial review. It also requires that laws uphold the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including the right to privacy and protection against unreasonable search and seizure. This balance is not theoretical. It is essential to maintaining public trust in our institutions.

The Barreau du Québec recognizes the legitimate objective of the bill, which is to modernize investigative tools in an ever-changing digital environment. We are nonetheless concerned about several provisions that could undermine fundamental rights, particularly when it comes to privacy and constitutional guarantees. Our goal is therefore to improve the bill so that it achieves its objectives without compromising the principles central to the rule of law or provoking court challenges.

Our recommendations focus on four main points.

First, the definition of subscriber information is too broad. The bill provides a very broad definition that is likely to reveal sensitive personal information when combined with other data, such as a person's name, alias, address, phone number and email address. The Supreme Court has also reminded us that the reasonable expectation of privacy must be analyzed in the current social and technological context, in which a massive quantity of data is collected, cross-referenced and retained. As a result, even isolated information can reveal a great deal when combined with other information.

Furthermore, the lack of a clear definition of the term “person providing services to the public” increases the risks of the invasion of privacy, as it allows for broad interpretation and potentially abusive applications. In the absence of legislative safeguards, this generic wording is likely to apply to a wide range of entities. That includes not only Internet service providers, but also companies and organizations with sensitive personal information.

This wording also creates uncertainty for the entities concerned, which could be forced to pass on sensitive information without clearly knowing whether they are legally required to do so. We recommend clarifying and narrowing these definitions to avoid overbreadth.

Second, the bill sets out an insufficient legal threshold for obtaining production orders. Under the bill, certain orders could be authorized on the basis of “reasonable grounds to suspect”, which is a lower threshold than is generally required for infringements of fundamental rights.

Let us not forget that the Supreme Court has established that subscriber information has a high level of constitutional protection, warranting rigorous judicial oversight. In our opinion, by stipulating the lower standard of mere suspicion, which does not require probability but only a reasonable possibility that an offence has been or will be committed, the bill does not meet constitutional privacy requirements. We therefore propose that, as with other similar orders currently in the Criminal Code, the threshold of “reasonable grounds to believe” be considered.

Third, there is a lack of judicial oversight in certain situations. Indeed, in certain cases, the bill allows for voluntary disclosure of information without judicial authorization, which we consider a significant departure from traditional safeguards in criminal law.

Let us not forget that even information that is considered “basic”, such as a subscriber's contact information or IP address, can, when linked to other elements, provide a detailed profile of the person in question. In this regard, the courts have found that it is imperative that the disclosure of this information be accompanied by procedural safeguards, including the requirement for prior judicial authorization. We recommend removing these mechanisms or, at the very least, requiring prior judicial oversight in all cases.

Fourth, the protection of solicitor-client privilege and computer data is at risk. The bill makes useful changes for the review of computer data. We maintain, however, that there should be a requirement that the extraction of computer data must be carried out by a person whose only role in the investigation of the offence in question is precisely to extract that data. That would be an effective way to avoid contamination of the investigation and, at the same time, to preserve solicitor-client privilege, which is a principle of fundamental justice as defined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Mr. Nadeau, I'm going to have to ask you to speed things up.

3:50 p.m.

President, Barreau du Québec

Marcel-Olivier Nadeau

I'm done, Mr. Chair.

In conclusion, I would say that the Barreau du Québec invites legislators to review the bill in order to maintain a fair balance between the effectiveness of investigations and the protection of fundamental rights.

We look forward to your questions.

I'm sorry that I went a little bit over.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

I'm sorry to have interrupted you. If you wish, you will probably have an opportunity later on to elaborate on the last point you mentioned quickly.

Mr. Lefebvre, you have the floor for five minutes.

Luc Lefebvre Chairman and Co-founder, Crypto Québec

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I appear before you today on behalf of Crypto Québec.

When I last appeared before this committee, as part of the consultations on Bill C‑8, I concluded by saying that the Quebec model increased overall security by harmonizing security and privacy protections, and that the government should draw inspiration from this approach, which has already proven to be effective.

However, today we find ourselves faced with a bill that many information security professionals in the country and abroad, as well as several technology organizations, consider fairly dangerous. These are organizations whose applications are used daily by a very large number of elected Canadian officials as well as law enforcement. I am notably thinking of Signal from the Signal Foundation, which is threatening to leave the country if this bill is passed, so as not to weaken the encryption of its application.

In our opinion, this bill should be withdrawn and completely rethought. The basic premise of this bill is flawed.

Bill C‑22 is based on a premise that has never been rigorously publicly demonstrated, which is that encryption is the main threat to public safety in Canada today. There is no evidence of that.

We've heard anecdotes from certain police forces and intelligence agencies, but we've never seen any empirical, public evidence that encryption is the greatest threat to Canada's national security.

On the contrary, it has been shown that the more data that is collected, the greater the risk of data leaks, without any real improvement in security.

To that effect, in the U.S., just a few years ago, it was demonstrated by The Washington Post that the FBI had massively overestimated the number of investigations allegedly blocked by encryption. These figures were then used publicly to justify the expansion of surveillance powers. We should not repeat the same mistake in Canada.

While we're being told about encryption being the problem, the actual public reports from the Canadian intelligence agencies, such as those from NSICOP, primarily tell us about foreign interference, deficient resources and the opaque expansion of the national security apparatus. The problem is thereby pretty clear. There's a lack of human, technical and financial resources as well as an excessive increase in data collection powers without any real oversight capacity. Bill C-22 addresses none of that.

Encryption is not the heart of this crisis; it is the solution.

Despite this, Bill C‑22 proposes nothing less than the creation of a permanent digital monitoring infrastructure. It would be an infrastructure in which service providers could be forced to keep more data, maintain technical access capabilities, respond to secret orders, and participate in extraction processes, even though the word “oversight” appears exactly zero times in the text of the bill.

The bill also makes no specific reference to robust democratic checks and balances. This is extremely concerning. A healthy democracy is founded on privacy, freedom of association, confidentiality of communications, and spaces where citizens can discuss and criticize power without fear of permanent structural monitoring.

To Albertans and Quebeckers alike, I say this. No federal government should ever possess expanded structural surveillance capabilities in a context where major democratic and constitutional debates may one day oppose Ottawa and the provinces.

Canada's history reminds us that national security tools can sometimes extend beyond external threats and affect domestic political movements. That's precisely why stellar democratic guardrails are needed.

It is also important to note that if this bill passes in its current form, all the efforts made in terms of digital sovereignty in Quebec will become null and void.

Protecting democracy in Canada requires strong institutions that balance security and privacy with robust oversight, checks and balances. Bill C-22, unfortunately, gives the impression that the main threat to Canada is becoming increasingly internal rather than external. We all know this is a slippery slope for a liberal democracy.

In closing, we believe that the Canadian Parliament should not adopt such a fundamentally transformative bill based on unfounded assumptions, fears or premises that have not been publicly demonstrated. There is no back door that is only used by the good guys. The history of cybersecurity shows us precisely the opposite.

Since the likelihood of potential abuses and their effects are too great, we are calling for Bill C‑22 to be withdrawn in its entirety.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre.

Mr. Dufresne, you have the floor for five minutes.

Philippe Dufresne Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to share my views on Bill C‑22.

Last week, I made a written submission to the committee, which I will address in greater detail today.

Bill C‑22 reintroduces lawful access provisions that were originally proposed in Bill C‑2, but with several changes that reflect feedback the government received. Some of these changes are consistent with written recommendations on Bill C‑2 that I submitted to the Minister of Public Safety last November.

Bill C-22 improves on its predecessor, Bill C-2, in several respects. In particular, I welcome the more narrowly tailored confirmation of service demand. I appreciate the addition of potential privacy and cybersecurity impacts as factors that must be considered in the making of regulations and orders under the supporting authorized access to information act, the SAAIA. I'm also pleased to see the act's new oversight role for the intelligence commissioner with respect to ministerial orders.

That being said, in my written brief to this committee, I've highlighted some aspects of Bill C-22 that would warrant, in my view, further amendments to strengthen and ensure privacy protections for Canadians.

Specifically, I recommend narrowing the definition of “subscriber information” to a closed list of discrete identifiers, such as a subscriber's name, address, telephone number and IP address. This would help to avoid capturing information that could attract a heightened expectation of privacy.

I also recommend restricting the range of persons or entities who could be compelled to produce subscriber information to telecommunications service providers, and ensuring that the justice or judge making the order can specify the subscriber information that must be produced.

In addition, I recommend defining “publicly available information” to exclude information in respect of which an individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy, as defined in the Communications Security Establishment Act.

The concept of so-called publicly available information continues to evolve, and an individual does not automatically waive any reasonable expectation of privacy for information that may be available online. Take, for example, a situation where an individual's information was disclosed as a result of a data breach or published without their knowledge or consent.

Another recommended amendment would be to add an overarching requirement that obligations imposed under the SAAIA be limited to what is necessary and proportionate. This would help to ensure that any such obligations, including with respect to the retention of metadata, are tailored to minimize privacy impacts.

On the issue of accessing information, I would recommend amending the definition of “systemic vulnerability” to clarify that it includes any action that would render systemic methods of authentication or encryption less effective, as in Australia's analogous law. In addition, I recommend specifying that regulations and orders must not have the effect of requiring an electronic service provider to introduce, or of preventing an electronic service provider from rectifying, a systemic vulnerability.

Finally, I recommend adding an exemption to the confidentiality rules set out in the supporting Access to Information Act which would expressly authorize electronic service providers to share information with appropriate regulators, such as the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, to enable them to properly exercise their powers and duties.

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to your questions.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you to all three of you for your presentations.

Mr. Caputo, you have the floor for six minutes.

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I'm going to start with Commissioner Dufresne. Thank you for being here again.

Can you please tell this committee how you were consulted on the drafting of this bill?

4 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

We were consulted by the Minister of Public Safety following Bill C-2. We made some recommendations to the minister. My staff met with staff from the minister's office. We had the opportunity to provide feedback. Some of it was taken up; some of it was not.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Am I correct in saying then that you, as the Privacy Commissioner, were not consulted on what should be in a bill that touches on so many people's online privacy?

4 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

As I said, we had an exchange. We were consulted post-Bill C-2 on what the next version should be. I would not say that we were not consulted in this instance. We made a number of recommendations. A number of them were taken and I've highlighted those improvements, but there remain many that were not: necessity and proportionality, safeguarding, the narrowing of the definition....

There remain privacy concerns, hence my submission to this committee.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I'm not sure if you've been watching this committee process, Commissioner Dufresne. One of the chief issues I have here is how quickly we are moving.

How many eminent witnesses do we have here? We have six very qualified witnesses representing three parties. This really should be divided up into two panels, in my view. I won't get to ask half the questions.

Can you comment? Does it feel to you like this has been a bit too rushed? You gave us five or six substantive amendments here. We're not even going to be able to ask you about a lot of them because we're quite short on time, without even getting to other valid points. From your observation, has this been rushed?

4 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

The committee is the master of its proceedings, but I did send a written brief last week, knowing that there was less time. We've made attempts to make it user-friendly and clear as to what our expectations are. We have eight specific recommendations to improve the bill from a privacy standpoint.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I'm mindful of that. I know you really can't weigh in.

Mr. Lefebvre, you have been observing this. Does this not feel rushed to you? It feels quite rushed to me.

4 p.m.

Chairman and Co-founder, Crypto Québec

Luc Lefebvre

Absolutely, it feels pretty rushed, particularly knowing that this is a bill that has an impact on every Canadian.

You know what they say. With extraordinary power comes extraordinary responsibility. I have the impression that they are asking for extraordinary power, but we don't know why. It seems that it has not been profoundly thought through, because it has many implications for everyone. We understand that this comes from a place of need and requirements from law enforcement and our intelligence agencies, but the impacts are so great that it needs to be discussed further.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I would agree with you. No one is doubting that we want to catch bad people, like terrorists, and—as in my prior life—catch people who abuse kids. There's no doubt about it.

You also hit the nail on the head. Not only has this been rushed, but the communications from the government have been awful, if I'm going to be candid about this. The minister would not declare whether he would be open to an amendment on encryption, which is something that you highlighted. I don't know why we're using cute phrases like “encryption-neutral”. We don't know any of that.

Amendments have to be in tomorrow, yet we're hearing from officials on Thursday. We've had one hour from officials. From your standpoint, can you see why it would be prudent to actually study this bill further?

4:05 p.m.

Chairman and Co-founder, Crypto Québec

Luc Lefebvre

Like I said before, the implications are grand. Every country that went that way, because there are other countries in the Five Eyes that went that way.... When I think of Australia and the United Kingdom, they took the time to think about it. They went a different way from what I wish they would have gone, but they took more time.

This matter affects businesses. It affects every citizen, and it affects every part of everyday life. It needs to be more thought through.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I understand.

I'm sorry, but I have to cut my time short with you because I'm down to about 45 seconds.

Mr. Nadeau, one of the things you talked about was oversight and people getting caught. Right now, the intelligence commissioner has to approve or sign off on a ministerial order. What would you say to an amendment that would require judicial oversight? In other words, rather than the intelligence commissioner, having the Federal Court of Canada.... Rather than having to go through judicial review as an extra step, it would go to the Federal Court of Canada in order to approve a ministerial order.

4:05 p.m.

President, Barreau du Québec

Marcel-Olivier Nadeau

Thank you for your question, sir.

I will let our expert, Mr. Marchand, answer.

Michel Marchand Member, Criminal Law Expert Group, Barreau du Québec

Hello.

That's a broad question and one that is difficult to answer. We'll have to see what the content of the ministerial order is. It's hard to answer the question without knowing all the parameters.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you for that brief answer.

In any case, we've gone over the six minutes allotted for this round.

Ms. Acan, you have the floor for six minutes.