Evidence of meeting #44 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reasonable.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON
It's the same point of order, Mr. Chair.
Again, we are studying clause-by-clause. We did hours of study in this committee for this bill. I suggest that we be more productive and, instead of spending 11 hours like last week filibustering, focus on the clause and ask questions relevant to the clause so that we can pass it. Those questions will definitely have a place to be asked.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Let me try to reconcile those two views.
It's about freedom and focus. It's the freedom to ask questions, but we want to focus on the topic raised by a particular amendment. If we want to have an efficient and productive discussion, we need to focus as we engage freely on the topics of our conversations.
We have a limited amount of time, as you rightly said, MP Lawton. Therefore, we'll encourage both freedom and focus.
MP Cody—
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC
I have a point of order. I believe the bells are ringing, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Do we have unanimous consent to continue while the vote is going on?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
I hear that we don't have unanimous consent, so we'll suspend. We'll have 10 minutes after the vote and then we'll resume again.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
I call the meeting back to order. Thank you for being back.
We were discussing BQ‑5. I believe Ms. Cody had nearly finished her remarks.
If you would like to continue, you have the floor, Ms. Cody.
Conservative
Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I would definitely like to make my comments since it is our people who are asking for this information. It's not like they're just going to a drawer and making a request to a service provider and it pulls out a file. It includes a lot of information going through systems and third party software. To be clear, we need to ensure that when people are asking for private information, they know what tools are being used, so they can be comfortable when they submit that request.
I'll continue with my questions. Because this bill requires service providers to build and maintain an infrastructure for a production order as a permanent feature of their systems, the threat environment that this infrastructure has to withstand is directly relevant to whether this bill is fit for purpose. Published cybersecurity assessments have found that AI tools have made it possible for people with relatively modest skills to scope out systems, find vulnerabilities and carry out attacks that used to require serious expertise and resources. The window between finding a weakness and exploiting it has narrowed dramatically.
Was any analysis done on what the interception infrastructure of this bill mandate looks like as an attack surface in that kind of environment? If not, what is the basis for bringing this forward without it?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
The focus of the legislation in part 2 is to establish a floor of capabilities, providing law enforcement with some of the information needed to advance their investigations. At the end of the day, the legislation is about creating those conditions, but it's up to the individual companies that are going to be subject to the regulations and the ministerial orders to determine how they meet those obligations. They will have to ensure that there are no systemic vulnerabilities in the system.
That's the answer that I would give. To be quite frank, it's hard to say, in advance, that if you do it this way, this is a vulnerability. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the company to meet the obligations of a production order, a search warrant or whatever the case may be, and to provide the information that's being requested following a judicial authorization.
Conservative
Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON
Thank you.
The security of the interception infrastructure this bill requires to be built to follow these production orders will depend entirely on whether that infrastructure can withstand the tools currently available to those who want to break into it. Before Claude Mythos was released to the public, it found a security flaw that had been sitting undetected in a widely used operating system for 27 years.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
As far as I understand, we're in the middle of a debate on BQ‑5. This question has nothing to do with BQ‑5.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Mr. Housefather, I understand your point of view very well.
For this debate to be as effective as possible, it's best to focus on the subject of the amendment at hand, which is BQ‑5, but the chair can't compel members to do so.
Conservative
Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'm going to continue with my questions. These are questions that I feel are important.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I have a point of order.
Mr. Chair, I do not believe that when you are on a specific amendment, you are allowed to stray off of that specific amendment to the point where you are asking about the bill as a whole and it has nothing to do with that specific amendment.
I would ask you to look at whether or not these questions are relevant because we have a choice. We can actually go through all of the amendments tonight. We have seven and a half hours to go through all the amendments, or we could do nothing and then be subject to a programming motion that will have us only vote on amendments and not discuss them.
Mr. Chair, please check whether or not she has to stay relevant because it's not relevant.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
I have the same point of order.
Mr. Housefather wasn't here before when we had an identical discussion. Once again, we have Liberal members trying to silence very legitimate questions being raised by members of this committee.
It was incredibly patronizing that Mr. Housefather was asking you to check Ms. Cody's questions. If Bill C-22 were to pass, the government could check whatever it wants on people's devices, I guess, but these are incredibly important questions. The fact that these Liberals are threatening, even in this committee process, to use the programming motion as a way to deny members the opportunity to speak is exactly why it is important to interrogate and scrutinize this bill.
Liberal
Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. It's the same point of order.
Liberal
Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON
As committee members—not only the Liberals but Conservatives and the Bloc—we had lots of hours on this committee and we did ask all these questions. Can we just be relevant? We are doing clause-by-clause. We are not doing a study with a question period here. We are doing clause-by-clause. We have to stick to the clauses. We have to study the relevance of the clauses and ask questions that are relevant to the clauses so we can move forward. Those questions will be coming soon and there will be time. If we can pass at least part 1 and move to part 2, then Ms. Cody can ask those questions when it's relevant. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
I don't believe I need to repeat what you just said. I think these points are well stated, and I expect everyone to take them into account as they proceed efficiently through this meeting.
Ms. Kirkland.
Conservative
Rhonda Kirkland Conservative Oshawa, ON
Can I ask something here? I think Ms. Cody is getting through her questions. I also think that it's possible she could get through her questions if she would stop being interrupted, and we could move on to the next amendments. I do think that she's going to get through her questions and then we'll move on. She has a right to ask them. I think we should just....