Science and Research Committee on May 12th, 2022

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to begin by thanking the witnesses who are joining us today for this important study.

I know we will stop hearing from witnesses very soon, but I would like to point out an important element concerning mental health. We are talking about keeping our students in the centres. We know that money is an important issue, but I would like to talk to you about mental health.

I will go to Mr. Fotang.

In 2018, two years before COVID‑19, the Quebec Student Union carried out a large study with 24,000 university students titled “What's Behind the Mask”. That study showed that 58% of university students were experiencing a high level of psychological distress.

Do you think the contracts of that study with 24,000 students apply to students from across Canada?

Do you have any comparable data?

[Christian Fotang]

I haven't had the chance to look at the reports you mentioned, but CASA has conducted similar surveys and we have had similar results.

I'd be happy to follow up with you and provide some of those results—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

It's very important for us to put that data in this study.

Could you tell us what experience you would have shared with your students on psychological distress? A number of factors can play a role, such as distance or finances.

Have you felt any psychological distress in your association?

[Christian Fotang]

Speaking from an individual perspective, certainly this has been a very tough year—a tough two years, really, with the impacts of the COVID‑19 pandemic. I know that has impacted a lot of sectors, but students especially. I think learning from home in the virtual environment has been really tough, in the sense of loneliness and not being able to connect with people in person. As we've started to open up again and have in-person classes, I think it's been tremendous for a lot of students' mental health.

There are also instances of our international students too. Many didn't qualify for the CERB or the CESB, and they're far from home. All of these things compounded have had huge effects on their mental health, and again that sense of anxiety, of depression. It's really had an impact.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

I will switch to Dr. Goosney and Dr. Smith on the same issue.

A survey carried out in February 2020, obtained by La Presse, reports that 25% of medical externs and researchers even thought about ending their lives during their education. That's one student in four. I thought that was an alarming statistic, given that the students of today are our doctors and researchers of tomorrow.

As president of the University Health Network, what do you think about the situation and what do you know about it?

[Kevin Smith]

Thank you very much for the very important question.

It is among the top issues that we're working on, both with learners as well as faculty members. Our nursing colleagues in particular have identified burnout and stress as a particularly risky issue. In academic nursing, of course, we're dramatically short. At the University Health Network at the moment, we have an opportunity for 600 nursing hires. They just simply aren't available.

In addition, we're seeing more people within the health professions and the research professions advising their children not to undertake studies in these domains, and I think that's the most concerning aspect of all. Their concerns have been particularly exacerbated through COVID.

I would say that all of the universities and academic hospitals have programs in place to support the psychological well-being of learners and faculty members, but as we're learning, the system has been overwhelmed, so we have a great backlog—not only, as we hear in the media, in areas like surgery, but also in mental health and the importance of mental health. Frankly, an investment of research dollars into the mental health of the provider community and the research community would also be a very welcome initiative.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you very much for your answer.

The Government of Canada created a tool called Wellness Together Canada to help people with psychological problems.

Do you provide any tools through your system to help those people and to address the demands more specifically, either through a direct line or through special assistance?

[Kevin Smith]

We do. One of the tools we've been using is a wellness survey for clinicians and researchers, working with the Mayo Clinic in the United States. I am a bit worried to tell you that the rates at which we see the responses indicating high levels of burnout and significant mental health distress are above 80%.

That having been said—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I just have a quick question before we end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Monsieur Lauzon, perhaps you could ask for the answer in writing.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Yes, that is what I want to ask.

Can you give us all the information? You can send it to us to make sure that we have it in the report.

[Kevin Smith]

Thank you; it will be my pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Monsieur Lauzon.

Thank you to both our witnesses for talking about mental health and for sharing what data you can.

It is now Mrs. Vignola's turn for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will first turn to Mr. Smith.

Mr. Smith, I really admire all your accolades and your decision to stay and work here in Canada.

That can't be a very easy decision to make. What is keeping you here in Canada? You have surely received some pretty attractive offers from abroad. How are you keeping yourself here and how can we ensure that exceptionally talented individuals like you stay in Canada and don't go to the United Kingdom, to European Union countries or to the United States, including the Silicon Valley, to which we are losing many of our talented computer scientists.

What can we do to keep others like we managed to keep you here?

[Kevin Smith]

You're much too generous about my limited contributions, but thank you. I'm a Canadian and I want to stay in Canada. I want to build Canada. I want to contribute to Canada having the highest quality of life in the world. I think we have all of those things in front of us, and there are opportunities to which we can contribute.

I made that choice many years ago. One of the advantages we have as visiting professors, going elsewhere and being able to experience those environments, is that we also learn that one can get things done in an interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary way in very unique ways in Canada. The collaborations we enjoy here are truly remarkable. That said, I've lived through times when we were more investment-rich than we have been of late. As we look to the future, it will be more difficult, and we're seeing new generations of young Canadians who are being encouraged to look at the quality of life, quality of work life and access to the tools that will make them successful. However, I believe that if we can offer those, we'll continue to keep Canadians in Canada.

In addition, just keeping Canadians in Canada isn't good enough: We have to recruit the brightest and the best. We're fortunate to do so at UHN. I can tell you that this week I was fortunate enough to interview colleagues from places like Memorial Sloan Kettering and MD Anderson in the United States, from the Karolinska in Sweden and from leading academic institutions in London. I'm sure we won't get every one of those landed, but we'll land a number, because it remains an attractive place to be.

However, for us to continue to be successful and keep the brightest and the best, we need to be competitive in funding, be it for students, faculty members, infrastructure or direct grant support.

Madame, you're stuck with me for the rest of my career. I'm happy to be here, and fortunate.

[Julie Vignola]

That's great. We are really happy about that. Thank you.

My next question is for the three of you. You can take turns answering. Given the short amount of time I have left, if you don't have enough time to answer, you can send me your answer in writing. I'm sorry that we have so little time.

We talked about mental health, and I know very well how difficult it is for a student to focus with an empty stomach or when they don't know whether they will be able to pay their rent or have to negotiate it.

Requests are often made to double grants, as Mr. Fotang suggested earlier, and to increase funding. Could that ultimately impact our students' mental health quality?

[Christian Fotang]

Affordability plays a huge role in the mental health aspect for students. It's enough that they're worrying about their courses, or being lonely or overwhelmed, but part of that feeling of being overwhelmed comes from not knowing where they're going to get the money to pay for their tuition, to pay for their rent and to pay for their groceries. When we talk about “investing” in those scholarships, that's exactly what it's doing: It's taking care of that burden that students have to put on themselves right now.

[Kevin Smith]

Perhaps I could add one comment. We are seeing a significant increase in graduate student numbers, as our NSERC colleagues will confirm, yet we are not able to provide them access to the same resources. Just as in our grants, we are saying no to many remarkable learners and many remarkable research opportunities.

Absolutely, increased investment would improve the situation. Do I think it will improve the mental health of individuals? Probably not. I suspect there's going to be both a cultural and a service change that's required.

I think we are in the throes of trying to make that happen, but we within the sciences still see resistance to identifying mental health, because of stigma. We all need to work at encouraging scientists and learners to come forward when in need of mental health supports.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

I'll add that I had about 40 students and post-docs during my career as a professor. Taking care of the precarious nature of the graduate students' life is definitely very important for the stability and the well-being of those individuals if they are going to fully realize their potential in research. It's absolutely important, not only for mental health, but for their well-being as human beings.

[Danika Goosney]

I would echo the comments made by my fellow witnesses. I think this increase would impact their mental health and certainly support the students much more effectively than they are supported now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thanks to all of you.

Thank you very much, Mrs. Vignola.

Now we will go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to stick with this line. I must say that I was just flabbergasted when I found out a few months ago that the values of these grants and scholarships that support our graduate students—and not just our graduate students, but our best graduate students, the ones who actually qualify for these grants and scholarships—hadn't changed since 2003. I think I was meeting with CASA or perhaps another group.

How does this happen? It's not just that the cost of living has gone up since then; tuition has skyrocketed since then. Now we have students trying to live on $17,000 or $20,000 a year, well below the poverty line and well below minimum wage. I was a grad student, and it was a full-time job.

I don't know.... I guess I'll ask you, Dr. Goosney. Why has it not come to the attention of anyone at the tri-council that these students are suffering? As to whether it's hard on their mental health, I know it's hard on them just to get enough money for groceries. Now they have to work part time or go into debt. Why did this happen? How can we fix it as soon as possible?

[Danika Goosney]

Thank you so much for your question. This certainly has come to our attention during our consultations for our strategic plan, “NSERC 2030”.

One of the key themes we heard about was an increase for the value and duration of these awards. Many folks commented on the fact that the awards hadn't been increased in the time frame you've mentioned. The recommendation was to increase a greater number, a greater value and a greater duration of these awards. I would say that the reason this situation hasn't been redressed over time is that there has been a constant re-evaluation of the balance between the number of awards we offer and their monetary value. It's a zero-sum game.

In 2015, we did increase the value of the post-doctoral awards from $40,000 to $45,000. Last year, we did increase our portion of the undergraduate student research award from $4,500 to $6,000. We've also increased the duration of the awards to three years instead of two years. Following budget 2019, we did receive 600 new Canada graduate scholarships. We've also invested in paid parental leave by increasing that leave for students from six months to 12 months, which was an investment.

That said, we are aware that with regard to our NSERC post-graduate scholarships and the other tri-council funding, students certainly are facing increasing financial hardship and that the rising cost of living does present a significant barrier to pursuing the graduate-level scholarships. We are committed to working very closely with the two other federal granting councils and with the research community to figure out ways in which we can better support these trainees.

Thank you for your question.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, and I hope we fix it by 2023, not by 2030.

I want to turn to Mr. Fotang to talk about something. I don't know if anyone has actually mentioned this.

This study is about attracting the best and brightest. I'm just wondering, Mr. Fotang, if you perhaps can comment on attracting international students and comment on the difficulties they face, whether it's funding or even the immigration limitations in getting here. I don't think we've heard anything about that in this study yet.

[Christian Fotang]

In terms of attracting international students, CASA has long been advocating the elimination of the requirement to apply for a separate work permit on top of the study permit. This has been a huge barrier to access for international students who try to apply for practicums or co-ops. Also, the processing sometimes takes a very long time, and it's quite costly and expensive for them.

There are additional things like those you mentioned. For awards and supports, right now a lot of international students tend not to qualify for or receive awards or scholarships. Also, whether it was at the provincial or the federal level of government, a lot of international students didn't qualify for CERB or CESB.

These are some of the things we can do to recruit and retain international students in terms of the advantage that Canada can provide.