Evidence of meeting #12 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was scholarships.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Robinson  Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
Sarah Watts-Rynard  Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
Robert Myers  Director, Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics
Julie Vignola  Beauport—Limoilou, BQ
Kevin Smith  President and Chief Executive Officer, University Health Network, As an Individual
Christian Fotang  Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Alejandro Adem  President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council
Danika Goosney  Vice-President, Research Grants and Scholarships Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

I call this meeting to order. Welcome, everyone.

We are meeting in a webcast session.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

We're happy tonight to welcome Ms. Vignola, as well as Madame Lapointe.

The Board of Internal Economy requires that committees adhere to the following health protocols, which are in effect until June 23, 2022: All individuals wishing to enter the parliamentary precinct must be fully vaccinated against COVID-19, and all those attending in person must wear a mask, except for members who are at their place during proceedings.

Please contact our clerk for further information on preventive measures for health and safety.

As the chair, I thank you for always adhering to these measures, because I will enforce them.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021.

I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You may speak in the official language of your choice. At the bottom of your screen, you may choose to hear floor audio, or English or French.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

When you're not speaking, your microphone should be muted. The clerk and I will maintain a speaking order.

To all our witnesses, welcome.

This is about top talent, research and innovation. Tonight we're very pleased to welcome, from the Canadian Association of University Teachers, David Robinson, executive director; from the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, Dr. Robert Myers, director; and from Polytechnics Canada, Ms. Sarah Watts-Rynard, chief executive officer, and Mr. Devon Blaskevitch, policy analyst. Welcome.

Each group will have five minutes. At the four-and-a-half-minute mark, I will hold up a yellow card and you will know that you have 30 seconds left.

We will begin. Again, welcome to our witnesses.

We'll begin with the Canadian Association of University Teachers. Mr. Robinson, the floor is yours for five minutes.

6:30 p.m.

David Robinson Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers

Good evening, and thank you.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that I am joining you this evening from the unceded and traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

I’m very grateful for the invitation to be here tonight on behalf of the Canadian Association of University Teachers. We represent 72,000 faculty, academic librarians and professional staff at more than 120 post-secondary institutions in all provinces across the country.

As an organization, we're uniquely positioned to comment on the issue of the recruitment and retention of researchers and scientists in Canada because our members are scientists and researchers themselves. They're also the teachers and instructors training the next generation of researchers and scientists.

As everyone on the committee knows, it is the higher education sector that does much of the heavy lifting when it comes to Canada's gross domestic expenditures on research and development, and this is a strength we can build on.

The investments we make in university and college research equips us to better understand the social and natural world in which we live so that we can tackle the many social, environmental, economic and public health challenges we face. We can spur innovation and enhance the quality of life for all Canadians.

In budget 2018, the government made significant investments to boost basic research funding, but there remains more distance to go to close the gap identified by the government's expert panel on fundamental science. To continue to attract and retain academic research talent, we need to continue to invest in basic university research, because this is vital for scientific advancement that leads to innovation.

While quick-to-market applications of science are appealing in the short term, fundamental world-changing science and innovation are rarely predictable and most often emerge from longer-term and fundamental discoveries driven by scientific curiosity.

Think of the 19th century Irish physicist John Tyndall, who asked the question, “Why is the sky blue?” That simple question led Tyndall to the discovery of basic properties of light that paved the way eventually for the development of lasers and other innovations. More recently, think of the basic science that underpins the mRNA vaccine platform, or the discovery of properties of magnetism that was necessary to develop MRIs.

We have a strong foundation in the higher education sector, but there are cracks emerging that I want to focus on. One of the biggest is related to the ongoing shift toward precarious employment at our post-secondary institutions.

As you've heard from others, full-time tenure-track academic employment provides the necessary stability needed for longer-term academic research. However, by our estimates, more than a third of academic staff, who are also highly educated researchers, are now employed on short-term teaching-only contracts. Because it's teaching only, it means their research potential is largely untapped, and even if they want to pursue research on their own time, obstacles remain. Without tenure or a tenure-track appointment, it's difficult, if not impossible, for contract academic staff to secure research grants through the federal funding agencies. Facing this uncertainty, many contract staff may abandon research altogether. Graduate students may question the attractiveness of the profession.

Finally, I'd like to emphasize that we need good-quality data about the entire academic staff workforce to fully understand its composition and challenges. Right now, Statistics Canada’s university and college academic staff system survey, a survey that collects data on academics and Canada’s research talent in universities, currently does not capture any information for contract academic staff, those working at colleges or any employment equity data beyond gender. Without this data, we simply don't know about the full composition of our academic research community, or what barriers may exist that prevent the full participation of all. Expanding this survey would greatly assist us in understanding the academic research workforce, how to better support our researchers and how best to harness their potential.

In conclusion, I want to reiterate that the higher education sector is essential to Canada's research future. Compared to other OECD countries, it is our strength that we need to build on. We must ensure that academic researchers, those in early career stages or those who are already established, are afforded decent working conditions, job security and equitable opportunities. These are essential if we are to attract and retain research talent. The federal government can play an important role in building upon this strength and foundation with clear action and support for academic researchers and for basic science.

Thank you.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

Thank you so very much, Mr. Robinson. We appreciate your being here.

We will now go to the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, and we'll be hearing from Dr. Myers for five minutes, please.

Dr. Myers, should we come back to you? You'd like us to come back. We will do that, sir.

With that, if it's okay with Polytechnics Canada, we will hear from you for five minutes, please.

The floor is yours.

6:40 p.m.

Sarah Watts-Rynard Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Thank you very much.

Good evening, Madam Chair and honourable members. I appreciate the opportunity to address you as part of this important study on how best to attract and retain science and research talent in Canada's post-secondary institutions.

I'm the CEO at Polytechnics Canada, a not-for-profit association representing 13 research-intensive, publicly funded polytechnics and institutes of technology. Collectively, our members provide education and training to more than 370,000 learners each year. Polytechnic institutions across Canada mobilize state-of-the-art facilities, equipment and expertise to deliver solutions to partners across industrial and social sectors, always in partnership and often with the help of student talent. As a result, institutions have a flexible and agile applied research infrastructure that adapts to the unique requirements of a partner and their project.

To give you some context, last year, polytechnics conducted more than 3,700 applied research projects with 2,600 industry partners. More than 23,000 students contributed to these projects, which included the development of more than 3,300 prototypes. Member institutions deployed nearly $39 million in federal funding and leveraged another $61.9 million from other sources. This essentially means they were able to secure $1.58 for every $1.00 that was invested by the federal government.

When it comes to attracting and retaining research talent, it is important to understand how polytechnics and colleges differ from their university colleagues. Research is largely undertaken by expert faculty who bring industry experience to their teaching careers. Research is not built into the formula of an instructor's time; it is absolutely extracurricular. This can pose real challenges, because academics who participate in applied research need to be backfilled in the classroom.

Attracting and retaining research talent comes with some fundamental challenges. Less than 5% of all federal investments in post-secondary research are allocated to this sector. If you're a researcher, this balance of funding sends a pretty clear message that you should go elsewhere, yet the type of research required by Canada's private sector—projects that support prototype development, commercialization, productivity improvements and job creation—is desperately needed. This calls for a rebalancing of funding formulas.

Applied research projects take a special kind of talent. They're people who understand industry challenges and develop pragmatic solutions in partnership, yet polytechnics do this work in a funding environment that's stacked against them. For example, while the college sector is technically eligible under the Canadian research chair program, allocations are based on funding received from tri-councils in the previous year. The college and community innovation program, which is the major and often only source of federal research funding, is excluded from this calculation.

The evaluation of Canada research chair applications is built around a history of publications and participation in peer review committees, but neither is an outcome associated with college applied research. Further, the peer review process inherently favours university researchers. When we've looked at why our members are successful in competitions, we've found that at least one member of the application review committee had a college affiliation, so populating those research review committees with individuals with knowledge of the polytechnic and college sector space is essential to ensuring equitable participation.

With challenges like that in mind, I have three broad recommendations for your consideration.

The first is appropriate funding that needs to be available to support polytechnic applied research. The ecosystem is under dire financial pressure. For example, the COVID rapid response grant for colleges was unable to support 71% of eligible projects, leaving 164 partners behind. While the number of partners on applications under the college and community innovation program has steadily increased since 2016, it hasn't kept up. In 2020, 715 partners could not be accommodated due to grant constraints.

Second, the peer review process must be adjusted to ensure the inclusion of people who have a solid understanding of polytechnic and college applied research.

Finally, it's time to end the exemption across tri-council funding formulas of the college and community innovation program. Now well past its pilot phase, this program has become integral to delivering private sector innovation, and its exclusion has pushed polytechnics and colleges to the periphery of the research ecosystem. I would say that's not a great place from which to attract top talent—

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

Ms. Watts-Rynard, I'm sorry. I gave you a little bit of extra time so you could get your recommendations in.

Thank you.

6:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

We will now go to Dr. Myers. We hope this goes well.

6:45 p.m.

Dr. Robert Myers Director, Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics

My apologies for what happened earlier. I'm not sure what happened.

In any event, my name is Rob Myers. I'm the director of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics here in Waterloo, Ontario.

I'd like to start by thanking the committee for the important work you're doing in helping to shape Canada's future.

Here's a bit about Perimeter. We're an independent, non-profit research centre that's supported by a public-private partnership. We're not funded like universities. We're not eligible for most granting council programs.

While I have no particular ask today, I do agree with past witnesses who've shared the need for stable and continuing support for Canada's research community and in particular for our talent pipelines.

Perimeter has a single focus, which is to pursue breakthroughs in our understanding of the universe. Such breakthroughs are vital. One major discovery in physics can have profound long-term ramifications for all of science and technology, but it's a long game.

Currently at Perimeter we're the home to 25 permanent faculty, 22 faculty who are part time and appointed with nearby universities, over 50 post-doctoral researchers and about 80 graduate students registered with nearby universities. When we think about recruitment, we think about recruitment at all of those levels. As you've heard, it's getting harder and harder to recruit talent for Canadian research organizations, so I want to share some thoughts on our approach.

Talent attraction is not just about a competitive salary, although that's important. Part of the strategy we take is calculated risks on unusual thinkers. We look for bold researchers who are brilliant, ambitious and adventurous. Most of them have multiple offers, so we need to provide something special. To attract them, we provide opportunities and experiences to maximize their potential: no teaching requirements, a collaborative atmosphere, freedom from the publish-or-perish treadmill, great administrative services and the flexibility to capitalize on new research opportunities. I must add that brilliant people want to work with other brilliant people. There's a strong cluster effect here at the institute and throughout “Quantum Valley” in the Waterloo region.

Let's look at some examples. On the first slide, we see the image just unveiled this morning of Sagittarius A*, the black hole at the centre of our own galaxy. It's a very challenging picture to take, and Perimeter's Avery Broderick was instrumental in this effort. Avery, who's cross-appointed at the University of Waterloo, was attracted here because of the support we could offer in the form of a research community, computing resources and resources for students and post-docs. In turn, Avery has given Canada a share in historic scientific achievements. That, in turn, helps us attract more talent.

On slide number two we see Kendrick Smith. Kendrick doesn't fit the usual categories that a university might look for; however, at Perimeter, he found the freedom to combine his talents in theoretical research, software engineering and data analysis. His software innovations have transformed Canada's giant telescope into a global leader in radio astronomy. Interestingly, the same software that Kendrick developed is now used to stress-test computer chips for a large manufacturer.

The last emblem that you see in the bottom corner is to remind me that, also during the pandemic, Kendrick applied his skills in collaboration with the medical community to develop a software package that helps us track COVID mutations.

Moving to slide three, we see Estelle Inack, originally from Cameroon. She chose Canada over a very lucrative position with a U.S. tech giant. She came here because she wanted to pursue her ideas with Canadian Roger Melko, who leads the Perimeter Institute Quantum Intelligence Lab. Today she's not only a top researcher who is producing innovative new machine learning algorithms, but she's also founded a start-up in Toronto based on her research.

These are just three people whom we've been able to recruit.

In closing, I just want to note that although I started by talking about the long game, it's interesting how that strategy has short-term payoffs, which I've tried to illustrate with these examples.

Thank you.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

Thank you so much, Dr. Myers.

We appreciate the time and effort from all our witnesses. I know that our members are eager to ask you questions. With that, we're going to go to our members.

We will begin with a six-minute round. We start with Mr. Williams tonight.

May 12th, 2022 / 6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses. It's always very exciting and very interesting to see everyone here.

I'll start with Polytechnics Canada.

Good evening, Sarah. It's good to see you. I enjoyed meeting with Cody and Devon back in March.

You had some great statistics about how we can best support research and innovation in our post-secondary institutions, and I believe we should look no further than our colleges and polytechnics. It's incredible to see the numbers you've presented—

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Williams. We're having translation issues.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

No problem—

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

My apologies.

Can we check that we have translation, please?

6:50 p.m.

A voice

It's all good.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kirsty Duncan

All good, Mr. Williams. The floor is yours.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

No problem, Madam Chair. Thank you very much.

With less than 5% of all federal research grants, colleges manage to produce significant economic and innovative results. Do you know what amounts you're looking for to increase funding if we're looking at it? Can you maintain the same ratio of the return on investment if you do get that funding?

6:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Sarah Watts-Rynard

Well, what I would say to you is that based on our conversations with NSERC and the college and community innovation fund, roughly 30% of all the proposals that are put forward by the college and polytechnic community are successful, so that's another 70% of projects that are being put forward that are not successful, not because they're not good projects, but because there are insufficient funds.

I would suggest to you that we could look at an increase that would at least encompass that range of projects and opportunities that the colleges have brought forward before we ran out of space, opportunity and bandwidth to do so.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you so very much.

Do you have enough talent? What's happening right now with your talent? How can you add talent to add to the funding if you were to have an increase?

6:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Sarah Watts-Rynard

I think it's important to recognize that the people who are undertaking projects within the college and polytechnic system are faculty members and students within the system. Really, there is no limit to the talent. It's what's available in every faculty in every part of the institutions and within the student community. I don't think—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

That's good. I'm so sorry, Sarah. I only have so much time to ask so many questions. This is the way it happens, but thank you.

Through you, Madam Chair, I know that you engage with many SMEs, Sarah. You had a number across Canada that you gave before. Where are they short on talent right now? In terms of having new projects and prototypes developed, where are the SMEs short of talent and what can we do to fix it?

6:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Sarah Watts-Rynard

What we're hearing and what our members are hearing from the small and medium-sized businesses they're working with is that they're short on talent in all areas. There's not just one. I would think that it would be dependent on the sector, but certainly what we've been hearing across the board is that it's all talent—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you so much.

The University of Waterloo previously told this committee that 75% of their software engineer grads are leaving for the U.S. Do you see the same thing with polytechnics and colleges across Canada? Are we losing graduates to the U.S.?

6:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Sarah Watts-Rynard

No. For the most part, my understanding is that while a portion of the graduates do go on to careers in other parts of the world, the majority of college and polytechnic graduates are being developed for the local labour market and they're staying in the local labour market.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you.

This committee has heard that commercialization is a valley of death that our universities have a great deal of trouble bridging. Do colleges and polytechnics face the same challenges?

6:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Sarah Watts-Rynard

They don't face the same challenges because the challenges they are addressing are the ones directly brought to them by businesses that have commercialization challenges, and those are then solved for those businesses. The intellectual property remains with the business.