Science and Research Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

I'll give you with some 10-year data from 2009 to 2018, on average, for all NSERC programs. In fact, if we dig deeper, we see that the data varies by program.

If we group all programs together, we see an average French success rate of 73%, compared to the average success rate of 66% for all NSERC applications.

Some programs will sometimes show opposite trends. However, we are close to an equivalent success rate. It's slightly higher for applications submitted to NSERC in French.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

The success rate is slightly higher, but slightly lower overall, compared to the demographic representation.

The president of the Acfas, Dr. Perreault, testified at the committee's first meeting. He said there was a fear, a distrust on the part of French-speaking researchers.

In your opinion, isn't there still work to be done with the federal granting councils to dispel this fear and, in particular, to increase the submission of applications in French?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

That's exactly what I was saying earlier. We need to dispel the myth that the success rate is lower for applications written in French.

At NSERC, numbers show the opposite trend. In fact, the rate is slightly higher for requests in French across all programs.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Is NSERC taking concrete steps to break down this belief and increase the number of applications submitted in French?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

There's still work to be done in this regard. Our data is public, and we're always happy to work with stakeholders to demystify it. Still, I'm convinced that more could be done.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

To your knowledge, have the federal government, your organization, or funding agencies addressed this issue?

Have they thought about and tried to understand the causes of this belief and complete imbalance? Our demographic representation is still over 10%, which is significant.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

Yes, the gap is large.

I don't know if any research has been done, but I can tell you that this is very frequently discussed. At NSERC, every time we put together an initiative or a program, we ask ourselves this question to make sure there's no unconscious bias.

We don't have a monopoly on the truth, but this discussion and efforts in this regard are ongoing.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Do you think—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

Thank you to all our witnesses. We're very grateful for everyone being here.

Now we will go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'll continue with Dr. Fortin.

We've heard of some of the biases. We've heard of perhaps a bias around the impact scores. You mentioned DORA, the Declaration on Research Assessment—the San Francisco declaration—which I believe is about 10 years old, but perhaps it is only being implemented now in various institutions around the world. You said that NSERC was changing its methods along those lines.

I just wonder how long you have been doing this. Has there been a change in what you've seen in terms of how different programs score?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

NSERC and the other two granting agencies, SSHRC and CIHR, signed on to DORA two or three years ago, I think. Don't quote me, but it's something like this. It's fairly recent.

Two elements are important for the implementation of DORA. One, which may seem trivial, is that we need to change our IT systems to be able to receive curricula vitae from researchers in a very different format. That seems trivial. That's something we're working on.

Most importantly, there's a conversation to be had with the research community. If we change what we reward and what we value at NSERC and, hence, who gets grants, it actually has an impact on tenure and promotion in institutions and in universities across the country. We must collectively evolve that culture, which was previously focused on impact factors. When we focus on impact factors, there is a bias—I don't know if it's an unconscious bias—towards English-language journals. We must change that conversation and allow narratives—not just lists of publications but narratives—where the applicant can put forward his or her career path, which may be a different career path. It may be a career path in French. That narrative space may allow the applicant to explain why he or she has chosen to publish in French, which may impact the impact factor.

We're in the process of changing the curricula vitae, but it's a systemic culture change that needs to happen. Culture doesn't change overnight. We all know this. It's going to take some time before we have a significant impact on those.

I'm hopeful. When I look at what we've achieved in the EDI discussions, we haven't solved it, but I believe we've made some progress. The conversations are not the same today as they were five years ago, so I hope that five years from now we can have conversations about careers in French that will be different from what we have today.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

In short, you're still working on that process, so we don't have any data from the changes because they haven't really occurred. It's good to hear that's happening.

We've also heard some discussions around open access publications and how that might influence French research. When I think of open access scientific publications, to me it means that I can access them free of charge, that I can read them without having a subscription or a library card at a university.

Maybe you or Dr. Matta could also comment on how open access could affect us.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

In NSERC, the question of open access is a challenging one. There is a whole business enterprise around scientific publications. An earlier witness talked about the big publishers, the Elseviers and Springers of the world.

It's changing a paradigm from that system that has been in place for decades, maybe half a century—I don't know—to a different paradigm of open access. There are still debates about who will incur the cost of this, because it's open access for the reader, but it's not free for people who want to publish. There's still quite a bit of debate around who's going to pay for this and how we will support it.

At the end of the day, again, it's linked to this culture change conversation about recognizing different forms of publications and different forms of achievements, not just scientific publications and journals but achievements. We were talking about the science promotion activities that we support. We want to recognize this when we assess researchers, so that if they have been active in promoting science in French, this becomes a significant contribution that is valued and rewarded in our system, and that's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Mr. Cannings.

Thank you, Dr. Fortin. I'm sorry to interrupt.

As I said, it's a collegial committee. It's my understanding that our Conservative colleagues have ceded their time to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for five minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dr. Fortin, you said earlier that the success rate for applications submitted in French was even higher than the average.

Do you have any data on the value of the grants awarded?

For example, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research found that, based on 2021 data, the average value of grants awarded to French-language applications was about 50% lower than for grants awarded to English-language applications.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

I don't have the data with me, unfortunately, but I would be happy to provide it to the committee. I highly doubt that it's 50%.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

Do you think there are any other problems or characteristics specific to the areas covered by NSERC that may explain the fact that francophone researchers prefer to use English?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

This may be due to people's perception of the ability of review committees to evaluate applications submitted in French. It may also be a matter of personal choice. I mentioned my own experience. University support is another criterion to consider.

Ultimately, it depends on the individual researcher.

At NSERC, we will always be pleased to work with universities and researchers to highlight the figures I mentioned earlier and explain how we handle French submissions.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Fortin, has NSERC thought about establishing quotas? Telefilm Canada and the Canada Council for the Arts have both done so. That would open the door to true demographic representation, something that doesn't exist at the moment, since Canada's French speakers are not adequately represented.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

You would have to ask the researchers, because we will always accept all applications, whether they are in French or English. You would have to ask the researchers whether they were amenable to the idea of quotas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You represent a granting agency. Do you know whether the academic community has given that any thought?

You spoke of positive measures, as well as the principles of equity, diversity and inclusion, or EDI. Other federal organizations have looked into that approach as well.

As far as you know, have there been any discussions around that possibility, or is it something your organization has considered?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

The EDI dimension is an interesting one because the support NSERC provided went to educational institutions, not to researchers strictly speaking. The idea was to build institutional capacity to increase EDI.

I want to be clear that I don't think any one measure is enough; a joint effort is needed. If that tool was one of many, we would gladly continue working with the community to support French-language research.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You say a number of initiatives exist, but researchers have told us that, if they don't publish in English, it's the end of the road. If they don't publish in English, their research grant application is more likely to be rejected.

The result is a real decline in the publication rate for French-language research in many scientific fields. I'm trying to figure out what NSERC can do to reverse that trend.

The government recognizes that French is in decline. This came up earlier. The French-language application rate is nearly 50% lower than the demographic weight of francophones.

The situation is serious, wouldn't you say?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

Yes, you're absolutely right.

We don't take it lightly. As I said, it's something we consider carefully in every program we administer and every action we take. We endeavour to identify unconscious bias.

We are keeping up our efforts to promote science in French-speaking communities.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Only 10% of francophone researchers submit their NSERC funding applications in French.

Has your organization examined that imbalance?