Science and Research Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Did the government act on that request?

[Gavin Douglas]

No.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I think you know the next answer.

Can you confirm that your organization called on the Liberal government in the 2022 pre-budget consultations to increase the value of graduate student and post-doctoral awards?

[Gavin Douglas]

Yes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Did the government act on that request?

[Gavin Douglas]

They did not, no.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I find this quite surprising, because the government knows how to spend money and run deficits.

Why do you think the Liberal government has ignored your request and has failed to listen to your voices?

[Gavin Douglas]

Well, first of all, this has been going on since 2003, this long-running process, so I would say it has been a failure of several governments over that time period.

I think it's a misunderstanding about what's needed for academic research and, as we've alluded to, the amount of federal funding in our research ecosystem is just really falling behind that of our international competitors. I believe it's a misunderstanding about how we should be prioritizing for research funding, fundamentally.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

When you're asking this particular ask and no one listens, why do think that is? Is it just a misunderstanding or is it not a priority? Are they telling you one thing and not following through or what?

[Gavin Douglas]

Clearly, it is not a priority, and I believe that's an incorrect assessment of the situation, because of the importance of being able to compete on the international stage with our research. I believe that's something that we just have to get across, and I believe we have evidence to show that it should be a priority, so I think we can point to that.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

Canadians across this country are feeling the impacts of the generational cost of living crisis. Those on fixed incomes, including students, are suffering because of the government's inflationary policies.

Last week, we heard from students who shared heartbreaking stories on the realities they are facing. One of three graduate students is living on less than $1,300 a month. Students are turning to food banks, as they can't afford the rising cost of groceries. Students are signing up for counselling, as they are struggling to afford to live, and students are actually living in homeless shelters, as the cost of rent has doubled.

Ms. Laframboise, can you describe how the cost of living crisis, combined with the government's funding freeze, has impacted the well-being of students?

[Sarah Laframboise]

I think we've seen very clearly over the last few years, and in talking to graduate students myself, that students are struggling in many ways. They're struggling mentally, physically, emotionally and financially.

I think financially is a big one that could be changed from the government's perspective as well, and this would impact a lot of these other ways. Mental health is a huge concern for graduate students. As you heard, 87% of graduate students have stress and anxiety about their finances alone. That's just about their finances, so imagine the stresses they're feeling because of so many other reasons. I would emphasize that right now, across the board, coast to coast to coast, graduate students are really struggling, and they're feeling the impacts of this.

I think it's really easy for us to sit in this room right now and not see that and not see them, but they are the foundations of research. They are the hands on the ground. They are the frontline workers of research.

I just emphasize that if they struggle, the whole ecosystem struggles and innovation in Canada struggles, and we will feel the impacts of that for generations to come.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I guess it's fair to say, though, that inflationary prices are definitely putting a strain on everybody.

Ms. Andrade, did you want to add to that at all on what this is causing for students?

[Prof. Maydianne Andrade]

Aligning with what my colleagues have said, I'd also say that, from the flip side, we are advising people to take fewer graduate students, because we need to be able to support them at a level where they can live. I've done external reviews for departments where the graduate students generally like the program but are struggling in these ways. We advise that they sometimes halve the number of graduate students they take in, which is going to have very negative effects upstream on the knowledge economy.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

It's going to dry up the pipeline.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you, Mr. Mazier.

Now we'll go to Ms. Bradford, please, for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses and to the gallery of students. We don't normally have standing room only in our committee room, so welcome to you all.

Ms. Laframboise, welcome back. As you mentioned before, you participated in an earlier study on top talent, research and innovation. I am sure you are aware that, as a result of that study, this committee made four very specific recommendations, four, five, seven and nine, which made recommendations to address this underfunding situation.

I just wanted to mention that. I'm sure you're aware, but I wanted to assure the students and everyone else here in the room that you were heard before. I do feel like we got a bit of lecture. I understand your frustration.

Building on your testimony the last time, you said:

Only 33% of graduate students are actually supported directly through tri-council awards from one of the three federal granting agencies. The rest are supported indirectly through stipends provided from their supervisors' research grants or departments.

What sources of research funding are there for graduate students beyond master's and doctoral grants and scholarships?

[Sarah Laframboise]

Students can be funded through a variety of different ways. I think the complexities of this are probably why they haven't changed in a really long time. The scholarships are a small aspect of it. In our survey, we found that 67% of students received a stipend directly from their supervisor. This would be directly from that supervisor's research grant. Funding coming their department or faculty was at 45%, then 20% had a federal award, and 11% had a provincial award. Those numbers are going to vary depending on the data source, obviously, but, in our survey, this was the breakdown of how students were funded.

I think it's important to understand where that money comes from when it comes from a department or a faculty member; it's coming through those grants. At the end of the day, almost all research that comes from the tri-councils is because they are either feeding through a graduate student indirectly or directly.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I understand. Thank you for clarifying that.

For master's and doctoral students receiving stipends and paid from their supervisors' research grants or departments, what salary range and average can they expect? How does that work fit into their own studies and research?

[Sarah Laframboise]

We surveyed all students who got stipends, whether it was directly or indirectly through their tri-councils. On average, we found that master's students were making $19,000 per year, and Ph.D students were making about $23,700 per year. This would be taking into account students who were funded through the scholarships and directly through their supervisors.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Professor Andrade, I'll go back to that same study we did, which was very informative.

Andrea Wishart was a Ph.D student from the University of Saskatchewan. Building on her testimony, I was wondering if you could answer how other jurisdictions set scholarship and bursary values for graduate and post-doctoral researchers.

[Prof. Maydianne Andrade]

There is a variety of different ways they do it. There are some places—I believe it's Norway, and I should have had this nailed down—where they have a standard across all fields as a function of your level. You come in as a master's student or in first year of your Ph.D, and you get a standard stipend. It builds up as you move through the program, just like it would in any other field where you gain expertise and your work becomes more valuable as you get trained. That kind of approach is very common.

Of course, in places like the United States, some institutions have very deep pockets, so they also provide funds out of, let's say, donations from alumni, etc., that can supplement these kinds of sources.

Then there are TAships, teaching assistantships. In our system, that happens as well. In other jurisdictions, there's a limit on how much TAship you do, whereas, in Canada, quite often people make up the difference of not having to go to a food bank by doing many, many hours of TAships, which means less time for their research.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

With our system here in Canada, because we have multiple jurisdictions, the provinces and territories are responsible essentially for operating costs for post-secondary, so there's a great variance across the country as well. It's hard to get universal standards.

How do post-doctoral fellowship monetary values impact in early career research?

Oh, I think we know that, so I'm going to drop that question. I already know the answer. Never ask a question that you know the answer to.

Mr. Douglas, this one's for you.

The government recently announced $1.4 billion through the Canada first research excellence fund. While that may not solve the problem, how do investments like these support researchers?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 15 seconds, please, Mr. Douglas.

[Gavin Douglas]

These are excellent investments, but they are insufficient for tackling this key issue. It is not that we don't value what the government is doing in funding this infrastructure, and other elements of academic research, but it is insufficient for this key issue.

In the recent federal support system report, there was reference made to the potential for brain drain which is really unprecedented in Canadian history, so it really should be a priority.