Science and Research Committee on May 16th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I call this meeting to order.

We have a few really good panels set up for today. Thank you to our clerk for getting that going.

Welcome to meeting number 44 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person, and we have a witness in the second hour who will be on Zoom.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

For those appearing by video conference.... That doesn't exactly apply right now. We'll do a reminder in the second hour.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 14, 2023, the committee is commencing its study of the Government of Canada's graduate scholarship and post-doctoral fellowship programs.

I welcome our guests. From the Department of Industry, we have Nipun Vats, the ADM of the science and research sector. From the National Research Council of Canada, we have Shannon Quinn, secretary general, and Joel Martin, chief science officer.

Each organization will have five minutes for its remarks, after which we will proceed to our rounds of questions. I will signal when we're getting close to the time.

Who would like to kick us off? It's over to you, Mr. Vats.

[Dr. Nipun Vats, Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the invitation.

I am pleased to join this committee once again to testify on this important topic.

I wish to acknowledge that I am working on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

As you mentioned, I am the Assistant Deputy Minister for the Science and Research Sector at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. In this role, I am responsible for policy and programs related to federal funding of post-secondary research, and for fostering connections between research and its downstream economic and societal benefits

Regarding post-secondary research, the ISED portfolio provides direct financial support to graduate students and post-doctoral fellows through scholarship and fellowship awards funded through the federal granting agencies, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, and in the health portfolio, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. All three will be here in the next hour.

ISED recognizes the critical role of graduate students and post-doctoral trainees in producing the knowledge, discoveries and innovations that help build a strong future for Canada and the world. The government is also cognizant of the central role that federal scholarships and fellowships play in nurturing and sustaining Canada's top talent through support for career progression, and increased financial security and independence in their academic pursuits.

Graduate students play a vital role in the research ecosystem, making considerable contributions to scientific publications and advancing knowledge while developing their skills and knowledge base. ISED recognizes that graduate students and trainees are facing financial challenges that can be a barrier to pursuing higher education and that these financial pressures can also impact students’ well-being.

It is important to provide a research environment that is supportive of Canada's top talent and promotes science in this country. We know that as other countries double down on their investments in science and research, Canada must continue to keep pace.

Overall, since 2016, Canada has committed more than $16 billion to support the valuable contributions that scientists and researchers make to the health, well-being and prosperity of all Canadians. This includes targeted investments in budget 2019 to fund an additional 500 master's scholarships, as well as 167 more doctoral scholarships. In addition, parental leave coverage was extended from six to 12 months to help young researchers better balance work and family and to not disadvantage early career researchers who wish to start a family.

ISED also recognizes that a more equitable, diverse and inclusive Canadian research enterprise is essential to creating innovative and impactful research. To this end, the government has invested in bursaries and scholarships for First Nations, Inuit, and Métis students through Indspire.

The granting agencies are also working to increase opportunities for Black student researchers, using the funds received in budget 2022 for targeted scholarships and fellowships.

Most recently, through budget 2023, to support post-secondary students and make life more affordable, the government proposed $813 million starting in 2023-24 to increase Canada student grants by 40%, providing up to $4,200 for full-time students. Budget 2023 further proposes to raise the interest-free Canada student loan limit from $210 to $300 per week of study and waive the requirement for mature students age 22 or older to undergo credit screening in order to qualify for federal student grants and loans for the first time. This will allow up to 1,000 additional students to benefit from federal aid in the coming year.

In addition, Budget 2023 also proposed $197 million in 2024-25 to the Student Work Placement Program to continue creating quality work-integrated learning opportunities for students through partnerships between employers and post-secondary institutions. This investment will support students in gaining the necessary skills, education, and real-life work experience to transition successfully into the workforce.

Looking forward, ISED will continue to work with the granting agencies and the research community, including graduate students and stakeholder organizations, to inform how we can improve the research environment for researchers now and in the future.

The previous work this committee has done as well as the ongoing study will certainly be valuable input.

I look forward to the discussion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to the National Research Council and Ms. Quinn.

[Dr. Shannon Quinn, Secretary General, National Research Council of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the invitation to speak with you today about the National Research Council of Canada. My name is Dr. Shannon Quinn, and I am the Secretary General for the NRC. I am joined by my colleague, Dr. Joel Martin, our Chief Science Officer, and Chief Digital Research Officer.

I would like to start by acknowledging that the research activities the National Research Council undertakes take place all across Canada on the unceded, shared, current and traditional territories of the first nations, Métis and Inuit peoples. We acknowledge and respect the peoples who were on these lands before us and the privilege we have to do our work on them.

The NRC is Canada's federal research and development organization. We conduct our activities in 24 locations across 10 provinces. Our scientists, engineers and business people work with universities, colleges and Canadian industry to advance research and technology and to move technology from the lab to the marketplace. We serve a unique role in connecting the diverse parts of Canada's science ecosystem. We use our research assets to respond to public policy priorities and create opportunities for Canadian businesses, and for Canadians as a whole. In 2021-22, the NRC labs worked with over 1,000 R and D clients. Through NRC IRAP, we've worked with over 9,000 small and medium-sized enterprises.

Today, the NRC is in a period of very exciting change. As we speak, we're preparing to transition NRC IRAP over to the new Canada Innovation Corporation to create even more opportunities for business innovation in Canada. At the same time, the NRC labs are undertaking a significant capital modernization that will provide researchers across the entire Canadian research ecosystem with access to the kind of modern facilities they need to do their work. This includes providing access to graduate and post-doctoral students.

As a research institution, the NRC is a partner to industry and academia. As an important part of our role in this ecosystem, we seek to provide opportunities for students and early career researchers. That said, I would like to emphasize that we are not funders of external graduate opportunities in the same way our colleagues in the granting councils are. Rather, the NRC works to provide students and early career researchers with important employment opportunities and experience working in our labs and facilities alongside our expert researchers.

In 2017, the NRC created a post-doctoral fellowship program to complement our early career research opportunities. By 2021-22, this provided valuable hands-on research training to 31 post-doctoral fellows. More broadly, in 2021-22, the NRC hired more than 400 students, ranging from co-op to doctorate levels.

Our goal is not to keep all of these researchers in house, but rather to train them and send them out into the broader ecosystem so they may contribute to the research happening in our industries and in academia. To illustrate this point is one specific example: Canada's most recent Nobel laureate, Dr. Donna Strickland, was herself a student at the NRC in her early career. She was a summer student, then subsequently a post-doctoral fellow at the NRC. She then went on to an outstanding career in academia.

Also of note, NRC IRAP has participated in the youth employment and skills strategy since its inception in 1997. YESS has provided thousands of job opportunities throughout Canada, across a wide range of sectors. This is good for the small and medium-sized enterprises, for the students and for the Canadian innovation sector in general.

In conclusion, as the Government of Canada’s largest research organization, the NRC is aware of its responsibility to continue the ongoing work of knowledge transfer. In doing so, we are nurturing the development of the highly-qualified personnel needed for Canada’s future success.

Thank you for your time.

Dr. Martin and I would be pleased to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to our first round of questions of six minutes each starting with Corey Tochor.

Mr. Tochor, the floor is yours.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I'll start with Mr. Vats.

It was proposed in the March 2023 “Report on the Advisory Panel on the Federal Research Support System” that the Canadian knowledge and science foundation, the CKSF, be created to complement but not replace the existing tri-council funders. What is your department's stance on this?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

The government is studying the recommendations of the report.

I think there's a general sense there could be more done in terms of driving mission-oriented research in having a more coordinated approach to how to engage with the research funders and how we engage internationally on science and research. A lot of the objectives of that recommendation in the Bouchard report are certainly worth thinking through, but the government hasn't yet decided on its approach to responding to the report. I think it has acknowledged that a lot of this is very valuable in terms of the directions the report puts forward.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

One of the directions they put forward is keeping STEM and the humanities united, with knowledge intended to be a large part of the represented humanities students. Has there been any consideration of the merits of splitting them further apart instead of uniting them?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

One thing we've seen in the way research has evolved over time is that there has been a greater appreciation of the synergies between different disciplines of research. You see a lot of the more transformative projects that are put forward by researchers cutting across social sciences, humanities and health sciences. I think the Bouchard report does indicate there is a core focus that's needed on certain areas of research, but there also needs to be a way to bring all of those capabilities together to address the big challenges we all face.

I don't know if the idea is to separate them more but to appreciate what each of those bring to the table and then think about ways to integrate them.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Switching gears a little bit, there have been long-term concerns in the States—and our demographics aren't that much different—and a great deal of discussion lately about how universities and colleges are going to be facing an enrolment crisis with the shifting demographics of both countries. The strengthening of the economy might impact how many students we have. Does that seem likely to occur in Canada as well? If so, how would you tailor your grant programs if it bore out that the demographics would be shifting?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

A lot of the universities, particularly for graduate-level and post-doctoral research, depend on international students to a great extent. They've added a lot of value to our research ecosystem, so I would expect there would continue to be an effort to try to attract talent to universities, not only for the benefits of revenue raising and research at universities, but also as a means to bring talented people from around the world to Canada and hopefully have them stay and contribute to the economy. I don't know if it would necessarily shift programming. There may be a need to look at how to incentivize the top international talent to come to Canada. There are certainly programs that do that today, and we'll likely have to continue exploring how to do that better, as other countries are pursuing the same objective.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Does it also weigh in a little bit that we have a smaller pool of applicants requesting funding, so the per-applicant dollar amount could go up?

An added benefit is that we may have fewer students, which helps with inflation out of control right now. By having fewer students with the same amount of money, there would be more dollars per student.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

You'd have to look at the trends for the undergraduate student population, which is the largest component of revenues for universities. If you're talking about scholarships and fellowships that are targeted at graduate students and post-doctoral fellows in particular, the numbers we're talking about are not huge in terms of the overall student population.

I would expect, to the extent possible, that universities would continue to try to attract top people to pursue that internationally. It's hard to say what that would—

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Being aware that we have 53 seconds left on my clock, we're going to switch gears to the NRC.

I did a bit of research, and according to the CSIS website, the NRC headquarters was a prime espionage target during the Cold War. Is foreign interference with students and professors still a concern, in your eyes?

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

I would say that scientific establishments in Canada we know are a target because we have advanced research. We have some of the leading research in some of the most sought-after domains, and the CNSC is no exception. We are a part of that ecosystem that we know has valuable information and is of interest to foreign entities.

We take that very, very seriously at the NRC. It's true from a physical security point of view. It's true from a cybersecurity point of view. Certainly our security screening is very, very important to us—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay.

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

—so everyone comes—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thanks, but I have to cut you off there. I think we have the main part of your thoughts.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Tochor.

Mr. Sousa, you're up next for six minutes.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the presentations.

Certainly Canada, and you referenced this in your comments, has been leading in research and innovation. We have developed some world-class researchers and we've performed, and it's been cutting edge.

We've talked in earlier discussions and other committee meetings about the commercialization and trying to bring Canada to the forefront, but certainly that initial researching effort is critical.

We, as a government, recognize that in order to cement that leadership in research and in science, we need to support the ecosystem. We need to modernize. We need to keep up the pace, and we need to face those challenges that are before us.

I appreciated your comments today regarding having commissioned a report in order to get third party review to ensure we cover the bases necessary to move forward on these initiatives and that we make informed decisions going forward. We have yet to make some of those decisions.

Mr. Vats, maybe I can start with you regarding how the federal funding for research has evolved over the years. Where are we now, where do you anticipate we're going to be and how has it evolved?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

Thank you for the question.

If you go back, it's been a very interesting progression, from my perspective. I was a graduate student in the mid-nineties, and—

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Wait a minute. The translation is screwed up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Yes, our translation has flipped languages. If we could go back to English, that would be great.

I'll give you a few more seconds on that.

Would you continue, please.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

There was a pretty significant investment starting at the end of the nineties and continuing for quite a period of time to build up Canada's research capabilities in terms of research infrastructure and research funding. You've seen the Canadian research ecosystem really evolve into something that's very well respected globally.

Institutions have built up their capabilities, and over time there's been an increase of funding in some larger programs as well, to really say if you have strengths at the institutional level, can we bring those to a world-class level where you're competing with the best in the world?

There was recently an announcement at the Canada research excellence fund about $1.3 billion or $1.4 billion, which is an example of a program that is meant to help Canadian research get to that next level globally.

You're also seeing an evolution in how institutions are working together. I think there's a recognition that even though we've invested in this strength domestically, if you're going to compete as a small country globally, you can't be a set of islands. You have to think about how you can bring your collective capabilities together to attack some of the big problems in the world and contribute to these big challenges.

There have been funding programs more recently that have tried to incentivize that collaboration across institutions. We've kind of evolved from really good research at a researcher level, to building up those capabilities in our institutions to the point where you have world-class institutions.

Can we actually get those institutions to work together effectively to be greater than the sum of their parts? The funding has tracked in that way and the way that institutions are working has evolved in that way. There's been a kind of virtuous cycle in terms of how that's happened.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Quinn, how many scholarships have you given out annually, and has it been increasing? Give us a sense of what we're talking about in terms of how many you've been doing and how the progression has been.

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

The NRC is not a granting agency; that's not our role. We do take very seriously our role in using our expertise and our facilities to be able to provide excellent training opportunities for students.

Back in 2017, there was a new post-doctoral fellowship program introduced within the NRC itself. Since that time, we've ramped up to funding about.... Well, in 2021-22, it was 31 post-doctoral fellows, so we went from zero to 31.

What we've seen is that it's very good for the fellows, and it's equally good for the NRC. It brings new ideas and brings a cross-pollination of ideas from the universities into the federal laboratories. It also provides us with opportunities to be able to also create other linkages back to those academic institutions to try to find, as Dr. Vats was mentioning, opportunities to create synergies between our network of 9,000 small and medium-sized businesses, academics and federal researchers. This will help them to all work together to get to that next level of taking technology out of the lab and into the business world.