Science and Research Committee on May 16th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We're at time now.

Thank you for the questions. We'll pick up on the next round.

Mr. Cannings, go ahead for six minutes please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to continue with Dr. Vats.

We have a situation, as you described. We know the problem. You said there hasn't been a solution put forward. Is it your job as ADM to come up with that solution?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

It's my job to make sure we're providing evidence to ministers on the issues and to discuss what the options could look like, but it's up to the government to think about what the best way forward on these things is.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Right. Whenever I talk to the minister about this, I get a litany of all the investments that have been made and the new funding programs for special areas of research, but it seems to me that really the basic part of research, the people who do it, has been forgotten in all this, especially the graduate students and post-docs.

I'm just wondering whether there has been a mismatch in where the government is putting its priorities. It wants to go after some of the bright shining lights of AI and things like that, but it has forgotten that basic research. I know there was an increase in funding in 2018 after the Naylor report, etc. I'm just wondering how this can happen, how we can have scholarships that aren't increased for 20 years. It just seems there's a bit of negligence going on there.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I don't have a great answer for you on that. What I would say is that when you look at investments in research funding, those are also investments in people. If you look at the percentage of graduate students who get federal scholarships and fellowships—it's important, don't get me wrong—it is a relatively small layer of those students who are actually funded to do research in the country.

The grants are another important element of that. When you look at programs like the CFREF, which we just discussed, and if you look at the increases that came out of the Naylor report, you see it varies a bit by agency. The agencies are going to be here in the next hour, so maybe they can speak to this. A large part of those grants goes to fund trainees. In some disciplines, virtually all of it is going to fund trainees.

It is fair to be looking at the scholarships and fellowships piece. I think it's a very clear measure of what a specific amount going to a student would look like, but you also can't forget that the lion's share of the funding that we think of as going to the scientists, the academic professors, is actually flowing to students and trainees as well.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

We have the Bouchard report, which was commissioned by your ministry. I don't know if you commissioned it or how that happens. That has come back. It knows about all these other investments and says we have to increase these scholarships and bursaries. We have to increase the tri-council research funding by 10% per year for the next five years.

There seems to be a disconnect there. On top of this, I hear now that instead of looking at increases, NSERC and other tri-councils have been asked to search for 3% cuts per year. Where are we going to cut? It sounds like suddenly instead of increasing, we're going to see a decrease.

I'm wondering what's going on behind the scenes.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

To start with, the Bouchard report is relatively recent. It took a while to transfer from the Naylor report to certain actions in response to Naylor. I think it's still a little early to be reading the tea leaves in terms of where this is going to go, although it's entirely up to the government in terms of what the government feels they can take action on earlier in the context of all the other things they need to think about.

In terms of the numbers that were put forward in the Bouchard report, in terms of the increases, I think they're partly a reflection of what's going on in the global scene. I think if you look at what other countries are investing in research, you see those kinds of numbers that were cited in the Bouchard report are not inconsistent with what other countries are looking at. There is some concern about Canada's competitive position. That's probably where that comes from.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

If I have a few more seconds left then—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about a minute.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

One of the witnesses in a previous meeting talked about advising departments across the country in science research. Lots of these departments are being forced to top up the scholarship amounts so that the students can survive. They're finding themselves having to spend more and more topping up these graduate student salaries. Now they're being advised to take in fewer graduate students. That was the advice that was given to them by someone who's a researcher in Canada, going around with NSERC, advising the departments.

Perhaps you can comment on that. That's where this is leading us. We are going to have fewer and fewer graduate students, and they're the people who are doing the research.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We're actually out of time on that. If there's something in writing we could get, that would be appreciated.

We'll go to our next round. It looks like we're going to have time for two and a half minutes at the end for both the Conservatives and the Liberals, so they can prepare for that.

Mr. Soroka, you have five minutes, please.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming today. I appreciate that.

Mr. Vats, I'll start off with you.

You paint a pretty picture, it seems, of how well our grad students are doing, yet that's not what they're telling us. I'm really concerned about their mental state. You mentioned they can borrow even more money, so potentially they're worried about the finances. They're not making much money, plus they're going deeper into debt.

What kind of quality of research do you think they're doing when their minds are on finances versus actually on the research itself?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I would start by saying it's important to acknowledge that the funding levels are a challenge. In my opening remarks, I highlighted that it has an impact on people's well-being and on their mental health. I'm not trying to discount that at all.

Again, this is anecdotal, but if you look at the research, the students who are involved in the research community are still very driven to try to conduct the best research that they possibly can. In Canada, they have a very good research environment to do so.

I'm sure this committee has had some opportunity to visit some of these facilities and meet with some of the students, but there's a lot of—

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'm not disputing that. The point is whether it's potentially going to be better. What is your department doing to try to make sure that the government is well aware of this?

You've said there are reports, yet there are no increases, definitely, in the budget.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

As I said, the report came out just prior to the budget. The government has indicated that it is studying the recommendations.

I know that Minister Champagne has been pretty active in speaking with the academic community to understand the situation better. He's had a number of engagements over the last little while.

Again, there is an acknowledgement that there's an issue. It's just a question of what the best way to address it will be.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Hopefully, in the future, they'll be addressing this. That's what you're saying.

Ms. Quinn, you discussed this a bit with my colleague.

When students or researchers are looking for more financial gains and they start going to foreign entities, such as Huawei, for computer hacking, for instance, are you concerned at all that national security is at risk with the equipment you're supplying to these students and researchers?

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

The students or researchers who access our facilities all go through the appropriate security screening. They're all issued devices from the NRC facilities that all have the appropriate protections and so on.

Anyone working for the NRC has the appropriate cybersecurity provisions on all of their various tools that we give them, including phones and laptops.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Yes, but we're teaching them how to hack computer systems. It's not necessarily our systems. That's what I'm talking about. It's national security. In the future, that can be used against us.

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

One of the things the NRC tries to do is provide opportunities, as I said earlier, for work experience for various students, which would serve as an alternative to looking to foreign entities for funding or work experience.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

My concern is that in the future, as we keep looking for more money for research when it's not coming from the government, and they start looking at foreign entities.... You're supplying them, as you said, with cutting-edge technologies, facilities and equipment.

Are we just attracting more foreign entities to come here to essentially abuse our system and our goodwill?

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

There's no doubt one of the things we're looking at is how to make sure that the very good work that's done at an academic level and within our own laboratories finds its way into Canadian businesses, also for the benefit of the broader economy.

One of the things we have put a lot of focus on in recent times is trying to create programming that will bring together students, federal researchers and businesses all together in one project. This is so you can see a direct pathway for these technologies that are under development to go all the way out into the business. It's a direct line into a Canadian business, so that it finds its way into the Canadian marketplace.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great. Thank you.

We went over a bit, but I'll watch that with the next speakers.

We go to Ms. Metlege Diab, please, for five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses as we continue this study.

Mr. Vats, I appreciate your testimony. I'm going to agree with you on the infrastructure and the evolution of how the institutions are now working together. I appreciate the fact that we're now incentivizing those collaborations. I know that in the part of the country that I come from, Nova Scotia, in the universities I have visited I've seen that first-hand. We have top-notch infrastructure and also wonderful collaboration happening within the province and also with institutions outside of the province.

I also appreciate the fact that you have acknowledged—I think we all do—that the funding levels are a challenge. Just this past weekend, it was Mother's Day, and I went to a barbecue where there were all kinds of post-docs and fellows, because I come from that circle, as my children are in that field. The barbecue was attended by about 12 to 15 of those post-docs and fellows. I was asking them about that funding.

I do agree with you, and I appreciate your testimony that students are very driven to do their best and to conduct the best research possible. They are extremely driven and they want to do their best. The institutions they're working in are also top-notch, I would say. I agree with you, but they still have to make ends meet, and it's difficult. I was asking them, and obviously what we're hearing here is correct. Before I was on the committee and studying all of this, I had no idea about a lot of that.

From your perspective, are there any international models you're aware of that we can look into for funding those students, post-doctoral fellows, these people who have been in the field for x number of years and are still making a pittance? Isn't “pittance” the English word for it?

For a lot of them, it has taken a decade and a half and perhaps more to get to where they are. To be frank, it's really difficult, really tough, for them to bear. I guess the question is, what else can we be doing to help them? How can we direct the tri-councils? What else can we do to improve things for them? What are we missing?

We're missing something, and I'm just looking to see from your perspective what else could we be doing as a country and as a government. I do appreciate the fact that even though I'm a mother of two of them like that, I had no idea, so most Canadians would not know. They would have no idea of the dollar amounts and the funding and so on. What else can we do?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about a minute and a half, Dr. Vats.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

Thank you.

You asked about international models. There are things that are a challenge in the Canadian context. As an example, in other countries, there's a much more active role for the private sector in supporting academic research, and academic research for its own sake, but also in terms of the collaborations between academia and industry. You can look at a country like Germany, for example. There's a lot of that kind of collaboration and investment that happens from the private sector and that certainly does augment this.

It has been a perpetual challenge here in Canada. We have a very different industry structure, risk tolerance and size of firm, and that makes it challenging, but I think there is the question of whether we can actually bring the private sector more into this, both to support the research and also for its long-term prosperity. I think that is one element.

There has also been a lot of focus on thinking about early career researchers and how, for those who choose to stay in academia, you make that transition from graduate student to faculty member. Some countries have an intermediate stage in careers and have funding that's associated with that as you're making that transition. Again, there are different funding models for that.

Also, for those who don't stay in academia, there's how you improve those successful transitions, because the majority of graduate students don't become academics. You want to make sure they have the skills they need, in addition to their intellectual capital and their analytical skills, to actually be able to plug into the workforce more broadly.