Science and Research Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It strikes me that some of the things you were talking about with regard to the risk exposure of students, etc., having their research funding cancelled and then the government and the taxpayer having to backfill that, could be avoided if some of those regulations were in fact front-ended at the application time. Would that be a correct assumption?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

True, but I think at the moment we are all learning how best to do this. We're constantly refining it, because your point earlier, I think, is key—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

How long should it take for Canada to learn and refine at this point?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

I think we're among the best in the world. I think we're internationally recognized in terms of our shared responsibility approach.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Do you think that's a fair assumption, given The Globe and Mail report from earlier this year?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Yes, I do. Internationally, we keep close contact with our partners, whether they're in the U.S. or Australia, Europe and so on. I think our approach here in Canada has been exemplary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great. Thank you very much for your answers and questions.

Now it's over to Valerie Bradford for six minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our three witnesses. I'm really looking forward to your testimony.

I will be sharing my time with Mr. McKay today. He wanted to ask some questions of this panel.

Welcome back, Mr. Gaffield. It's good to see you again.

In 2021, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada released the national security guidelines for research partnerships. How do your institutions ensure that the researchers are aware of and compliant with these guidelines?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

They have all now created research security offices or branches within their operations. They're undertaking public awareness discussions and town halls on their campuses. Literature has been sent out and so on.

This guide has really tried to help bring together, in many ways, and to help, as my colleague Philip was saying, particularly across our 97 institutions. This was developed for everybody. I think getting the word out and ensuring that we all can de-risk rather than simply decouple what we're doing internationally is the objective. We're pursuing it with, I think, considerable success.

We've heard lots of discussion here at the committee about attempts to interfere with research or individual researchers and various strategies and so on. We are very aware of that. We're very pleased that, thus far, we've been able to manage that successfully. It's been partly through the information sharing and the consciousness raising and so on.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Great.

I know that U15 Canada is also working toward developing a “secure scholar” digital tool to support researchers and institutions in fulfilling security requirements. Can you elaborate on that how that works?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Yes. It's a really important point. Thank you for asking that.

We were concerned that some of the digital tools available for managing research security are created outside Canada in databases and so on. We felt that there really should be a made-in-Canada option for underpinning a lot of our risk management on our campuses. We took the initiative to start building Securescholar.ca with contributions from our members across Canada. A beta version of that will be available shortly. Our hope is that we'll thereby have a made-in-Canada digital tool that will really help and support the risk management on our campuses with respect to research security.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

My last question is for you, Mr. Landon. What steps does your institution, like other post-secondary institutions, take to ensure research security with international partners? What steps do they take to ensure that?

[Philip Landon]

My institution represents the 97 universities. Those universities do apply the national security guidelines, as Mr. Gaffield was referring to. They do their due diligence on all international collaborations in this changing environment. It has become tighter over time. Those guidelines have been very helpful tools for them.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

I'll turn it over to you, John.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, colleague.

I want to direct my question to Mr. Stoff.

We just heard Dr. Gaffield talk about de-risking versus decoupling. Do you think that there is any system, any app, any education, that can actually drive the risk of intellectual theft, primarily, down to such a level that we can have confidence that it's not leaking out to what is our main geopolitical risk, namely China?

[Jeffrey Stoff]

Thank you.

If your question is in terms of a technical capability, then no, I'm not aware of anything out there and I would be pessimistic that there would be such a kind of magical tool that can do that given the sophistication of the way China operates, the way it obfuscates its activities, and the way it integrates and attempts to influence and divert knowledge transfers in ways that are opaque. A lot of that takes a lot more digging and nuance, and I don't know of a tool that's going to solve that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I had the good fortune to be in Taiwan last May and of course their threat environment is significantly different from ours, but I didn't get the impression that they were worried about their research leaking out to China because they were acutely aware of the way in which the Chinese government had tried to insinuate itself into Taiwanese society. They were constantly concerned about dual use. Even research that appears to be benign or for a non-military or non-security aspect, in fact, can be turned against the best interests of the host nation.

In light of the testimony given by Mr. Landon and Dr. Gaffield, do you believe—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry. We're out of time, but if there is a comment coming back to us, if we could have that in writing, it would be helpful. I think we know where you were going with that.

Now we'll go over to Maxime Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I welcome the witnesses who are joining us for this study.

Mr. Landon, you're joining us for the first time. I'd like to welcome you. I also want to congratulate you on your new mandate. You've been in office for almost three months now. I wanted us to set the stage: it's not every day that we receive the president of Universities Canada, which represents 97 universities in Canada.

Since the beginning of your mandate, have you been able to meet with the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry to share any concerns about research?

[Philip Landon]

I have not met Minister Champagne personally, but the university presidents met with him once.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

All right, thank you.

As Universities Canada's interim representative for the past three months, have you been able to have a meeting with government people to share concerns about scientific research in Canada?

[Philip Landon]

Yes, of course.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

With whom did you meet?

[Philip Landon]

I met with the universities working group, which Mr. Gaffield was talking about.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'm talking about members of the government. Have you met any ministers, MPs or other parliamentarians?