Science and Research Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say two things.

First, I want to point out that our government has made the largest investment in science of any government, and scientists will tell you that.

Should the government keep investing if it wants Canada to remain a leader? The answer is definitely yes. That is why my colleagues and I are looking at the different programs that support researchers and students. We have taken measures, and we will continue to do so. If you're asking me whether we should do more in order to remain a leader, the answer is yes.

I agree with you. That is the reason my colleagues and I are working to figure out what more we can do. As you mentioned, the Bouchard report was critical in helping us focus our thinking, with respect to not only funding, but also the way that research is organized in the country.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for clarifying that, Minister. When the fall economic statement comes out tomorrow, I hope it will bring good news for the value of graduate scholarships.

Minister, you said that measures have been taken. You mentioned the creation of the Advisory Panel on the Federal Research Support System and its report.

I have the report here, and it makes some rather important points. It calls for the creation of a new committee to better coordinate programming across the granting councils. It also mentions support for master's and Ph.D. students, and recommends measures to support French-language research. In addition, the report sets out a timeline for implementing the recommendations.

In a month and a half, 2023 will be over. The report underscores the importance of creating a new body to administer and support strategic science funding.

What can you tell us about the proposed timeline in the report?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but we've run out of time. It's always the way.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I will gladly accept an answer in writing from you, Minister.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I won't be far. We can talk about it again after.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great, thank you.

Mr. Cannings, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to follow up and ask almost exactly the same question in English that Mr. Blanchette-Joncas just asked.

I think it's a shameful situation where the tri-council fellowships and scholarships haven't changed in value for 20 years. We have master's students who are asked to lived on $17,500 a year. That includes their tuition, which averages about $7,000, so they're asked to live on $10,000 a year. They're living below the poverty line.

These aren't just average students. These are the best students, the best and the brightest. I gave the example of someone who went to Europe because the European Union was offering twice what Canada was offering. This is not only shameful for how Canada treats its science and research ecosystem—you talked about how important it was that we help to nurture science and research in Canada—but it touches on the security issues as well.

I'm wondering, with the fall economic statement tomorrow, will there be news in that regard, especially for this low-hanging fruit of these scholarships and fellowships?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'll say, Mr Cannings, you've been consistent in referring to that. Like I said, I hear the students. For those who are watching—the teachers and the researchers—I want to thank them. I am fully aware of the issue. I understood the question before, as well.

We've been the government that has been investing the most in science, but to keep our leading position, we need to keep investing. I hear that. I've heard stories. I've met with students.

Trust me, if there's one thing that is top of mind for me, it's how we can help these students and how we can help the researchers. The research of today is tomorrow's economy. I'm very conscious of that. Whatever we can do to support them, I can assure you, sir, those are active discussions

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I have 30 seconds.

You mentioned Dr. Bouchard's report. You commissioned that report. He's saying the same thing. When I talk to him personally, he expresses concern that this hasn't been acted on. There hasn't been any increase to those fellowships and scholarships, and to the research grants themselves, which help fund even more students.

We are really losing out here. We are falling behind. I hope there's some good news soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you, Mr. Cannings.

We'll go to Mr. Lobb for two and half minutes, and then we'll go to the Liberals for two and a half minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question is in regard to the research support fund. That's the $25-million-a-year program for five years.

Have there been any decisions made in this calendar year on whether anybody should receive that money? If so, how much has been allocated?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That's a good question.

Let me turn to one of my officials. I don't have the details of that, sir.

[Dr. Nipun Vats, Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry]

The research support fund is provided to institutions on the basis of a formula. Basically—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

If you have maybe allocated some, you can submit it to the committee for the purposes of the report.

My second question is for the minister.

It is in regard to the assessment form. Somebody inside the university who is doing the research fills it out. Who looks at it and who verifies the information? It looks to me that every single project should be filled out by somebody at a university, based on the criteria.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

The researcher would do that, but we also have a system—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Who would look at the form once it's filled out to decide whether or not it needs to be further reviewed?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Do you mean per institution?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's correct—per application, per institution.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'm happy to have the officials answer that, sir.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

Under the current guidelines, the way it works is that the institution first reviews what a researcher does.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I understand that, but who—

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

It then goes to the granting council. It goes to NSERC. NSERC then assesses it based on the information that has been reported. If they see that there is a potential security risk associated with a project, it's then referred to the—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Can I ask one quick question?

What particular training would they have to give them that level of knowledge to know that without help from the RCMP or CSIS or the military?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

They've worked very closely with the security agencies on that initial stage of assessment to be able to identify where there are some potential risks. If they feel that there may be a risk, they would then refer it for a more detailed review by the security agencies.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Is there a fine or a charge if the form is filled out incorrectly? Would the researcher, if they filled it out incorrectly.... Is there a charge or a fine for anybody who tries to mislead?