Status of Women Committee on March 1st, 2007

[Janet Siddall]

That's certainly in place with CIC.

[Donna Miller]

What I would say in terms of Justice Canada, honourable member, is that if gender is an issue that is part of a subject or an MC or in any policy proposal where gender is relevant, GBA charter analysis is an integral part of the submission that's done.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon to our panel, and thank you for your presentations and for sharing some time with us this afternoon.

As you explained the progress that has been made on a number of different fronts and we look at the lens through which gender analysis is accomplished, looking at policy and programs, you--I think it was Madam Lizotte-MacPherson--mentioned some outcomes. What are the measures you use to in fact see what those outcomes could be? You talked about the gender wage gap. I assume that relates to the public service. Because it relates to programs, do you look at measurements of the impacts in terms of society as well?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

That would not be part of our mandate. One of the other things we do look at is in terms of whether or not departments have sufficient policy capacity as part of that. We do the management accountability framework, or the MAF, assessment on an annual basis to really assess a department's management capacity.

There are 10 different evaluation key indicators, if you will, and one of the areas is really their overall policy development capacity and analytical skills, which would include things such as whether they factor in gender-based analysis, official languages, and so forth. That would be part of a consideration in one of our indicators.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Considering that the gender-based analysis culture is continuing to become more of a natural part of the policy development process, and as Dr. Bennett pointed out, this stretches back not just years but decades, what's in front of us as we move forward? You've already suggested, for example, that you're beginning to see that gender issues are starting to merge with an outlook at diversity in general. As we go forward and as these gaps continue to close, do you foresee a period of time where the notions of purely gender-based analysis will begin to blend into that broader base of just good practices and policy-making with respect to diversity? I put this particularly to our program people--Justice, Immigration, and HRSDC.

[Janet Siddall]

I would certainly say that I would agree with what you are saying. I think there are two ways certainly to move forward a process like gender-based analysis. You can have the hard controls like the legislation we have at CIC, but I think that equally important are what I would call the soft controls. I would say our commitment to values and ethics--certainly in CIC our commitment to employment equity and diversity--is a very important part, because we imbue that. We do a lot of training of all of our employees at all levels of the organization. The final goal is that this should be second nature, just part of the way we do business in Citizenship and Immigration.

[Donna Miller]

I would like to add to that from the viewpoint of Justice Canada. We think it's inherent in any sound policy analysis or legal analysis that there's a reflection on the social implications of any policy proposal. So often, of course, social implications speak to gender and to diversity issues, but it is very much part and parcel--an integral part--of our legal analysis and our policy analysis.

[Kathy O'Hara]

Perhaps I could just add to that. Donna talked about the number of female lawyers in the department. I was quite struck when I was preparing for my presentation. I wondered about our policy analysts, whether they're male or female. So what we did was we looked at the ES category, or the economist category, which comprises largely the people in the department who do the policy work. It reflected my gut instinct, which was that 55% of our ESs who are doing policy analysis are in fact women.

So this is another way of getting back to your question. I think it is just part of policy analysis. It's instinctive. When 55% of your policy advisers are women, they're inevitably going to be bringing those issues into play.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You have two more minutes, Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I do?

I'm sorry, yes, Monique.

[Monique Boudrias]

I just want to say a few things about the employer, the Government of Canada. I think we are evolving from employment equity to management of diversity. Even though we may have a better representation of women, at one point, there are other family related issues that we have to look at. Interestingly enough, paternity leave and day care and taking care of the older members of the family, and so forth...it's coming to us. We also have a duty to accommodate for disabled people, but also for people who have other issues that are about religion, and so on. So we hope to move to that kind of diversity management so that the workplace is more conducive to all those kinds of diversity in the future.

The key stakeholders for us, obviously, are our unions. I must say that when we do consultations on our policies, they're there looking at them, and they have their own policy advisers within the unions. They're very, very careful at looking at what we do on women's issues and equity issues, and so on. So we take good care of their comments in terms of integrating that into our process.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Madam Chair, the other thing with the increasing trend that we're seeing in terms of collective agreements is there is a shift. There is much more of a focus, in new clauses, for example, on allowing pregnant employees to come back on a graduated basis. So we're starting to see some very different kinds of clauses emerging, and I think we can expect to see more of that as we move forward.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I've run out of time now.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I think you've run out of time, Mr. Stanton.

Thank you for your answers.

Ms. Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Madam Chair, I do not often attend meetings of this committee, but I am pleased to be here in the company of representatives of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. My questions are probably addressed more to Ms. Siddall. I'll give the others a little rest.

Immigrant women constitute a large proportion of the female population, and I believe that number has been increasing over the years. They are an asset. Many of them are successful economically—very successful—and make a remarkable contribution to our economy, our community and political life, and human rights. We have only to look at the women in Quebec representing large union organizations or large women's organizations. I am thinking of the dynamism demonstrated by the Réseau des femmes d'affaires, as well as women who are members of the Association des femmes en finance du Québec

At the same time, there is one reality that affects immigrant women and refugees when they apply for immigrant status. I believe that Ms. Siddall is very much aware of the harm that can be caused by the Immigration Act, in terms of their equitable treatment and recognition as heads of family, as well as their particular circumstances when they are refugees. Often they are on welfare, which prevents them from being reunited with their children and their spouse.

There is also the matter of recent measures that were taken or imposed with a view to ensuring there is proof of family ties. I'm referring to DNA tests to prove the existence of a blood relationship, as well as a whole series of measures, including the points system used for candidate selection. I could list a number of other issues that affect women, particularly the wage gap in other countries. In Canada, we have seen that such a wage gap exists. We are making progress, but in many countries, the progress has not been as significant or noteworthy. I would like to know specifically what plan of action the Department of Citizenship and Immigration has put in place to remove the barriers faced by these women, and I also would like to know about both efforts and expenditures in that area.

[Janet Siddall]

I believe I have multiple questions.

In terms of the different streams of immigration that we have, we certainly did the gender-based analysis on our selection criteria for skilled workers. There is no indication that it is biased against women, and it's gender neutral.

For example, we give credit for the experiences of a spouse, whether male or female, and we also extended the work experience from 5 to 10 years, in recognition that women would take time out of the workplace to raise their families.

When it comes to our refugee selection, of course, we're looking at the most formidable groups, and our policy is to resettle the most vulnerable, including women and women at risk. This is now a disproportionate part of our program. What we are trying to do with the new settlement funding.... Over $300 million in the last budget will certainly assist in settlement programs for all newcomers to Canada. In fact, we are reporting an accountability mechanism indicating that 65% of our clients for language training, for example, are women. This will certainly benefit them.

You had other questions there, but I'll summarize it as that. We believe we make strong efforts to evaluate our policies and programs, family unification included, and make adjustments if we have to, wherever possible.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

In the documentation you provided, you say that you are currently reviewing the Citizenship Act. Are any concrete steps planned that will address the hardship caused to women?

[Janet Siddall]

Where issues have been raised with us, for example, in the documentation, we mentioned a review of the live-in caregiver program and the trafficking program. We are taking steps in working with the not-for-profit community and women's groups to look at those issues.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

It is written in black and white in the documentation you provided that you are currently reviewing the Citizenship Act. Is that still a current project? Will you take action to address the harm caused women under the Citizenship Act?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, our time is up right now, and we have to go to Ms. Mathyssen.

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

In a recent report--I was looking at this document--we had testimony from the Business and Professional Women of Canada. They talked very specifically about the growing gap in terms of men's and women's salaries, and that income gap has widened, actually, between men and women who are university graduates. I think it was something quite astounding: university graduates who are female are making something like 48% of what their male counterparts make. There was a reference to a report, Equality for Women: Beyond the Illusion. That was a 2005 report.

When we see this report and hear the testimony here and hear from others, like the Professional and Business Women, I'm wondering why there are these discrepancies, these contradictions. Is it because of things such as that women, by virtue of the fact that they have so many obligations outside of their jobs, don't perhaps work as many hours or can't go after the promotions that men would go after? Is that a possible explanation for the difference between what we're hearing here and what we heard from the Professional and Business Women? Has there been any analysis of that done?

[Kathy O'Hara]

I could maybe speak to some of that. I think you had some remarks from one of my colleagues at Human Resources and Social Development, Barbara Glover, who was a witness here and who I think spoke to this issue. My sense, from looking at some of her data, is that in many ways it depends on whether you're talking about full-time work or part-time work. The gap varies depending on that.

I think the age issue is quite interesting, and I think there was some data presented that for university graduates under 25 years of age who were working full-time, there in fact was virtually no gap between men's and women's wages for that group. So I think it's really important to sort of disaggregate it, if I can.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So those women under 25 would likely be single women who probably weren't in that vice of trying to be all things to all people.