Status of Women Committee on May 8th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Smith, would you ensure that the list goes up to that date and that this isn't prolonged too long afterwards?

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Of course. The minister wants to do it as quickly as she can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Are we all agreeable to this, then?

(Motion as amended agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

The second motion is by Ms. Minna.

Ms. Minna, would you like to read your motion for the record, please?

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I move, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women recommend to the government to immediately introduce proactive pay equity legislation as recommended by the 2004 federal Pay Equity Task Force, and that the chair report the adoption of this motion to the House without delay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Is there discussion?

Ms. Smith, and then Mr. Stanton.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Our government recognizes pay equity as a human right, and a very important human right. The pay equity provisions have been in the Canadian Human Rights Act since 1977. The equal wage guidelines were actually enacted under the Conservative government in 1986, and this government remains a strong supporter of pay equity. Under the previous Liberal government, funding cuts to the labour program in the early 1990s resulted in almost a decade without any pay equity programs

I must say the minister did look at the pay equity legislation, and we will not be supporting this motion, because he has already taken action to ensure that supervisors are in place, and there is very strong support for pay equity without the legislation actually having to be changed, and all the timelines and everything. Without its being held up, he's just getting the job done now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Continuing that line of thought, this is a topic we have discussed before at this committee. As Madam Smith has indicated, the current minister has suggested that in fact new legislation...new, as in this motion, suggests proactive pay equity legislation. We have pay equity legislation now; it exists. It really just needs to be implemented. To properly implement it, the minister has embarked on a proactive program to hire some 100 to 110 new inspectors, to have them on the job site making sure that the existing pay equity legislation, which is proactive and far-reaching, is properly implemented.

The second point, Madam Chair, is that the government response, I believe, and I could be corrected on this, to the fifth report of this committee—a response, in fact, by the former government—clearly outlined those same points, in 2005. I think if we were to check back to see what that government response says, it would echo these sentiments exactly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Stanton.

Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I support that idea. Last week again, we met with a number of groups who had come to make representations to members of the House of Commons. Those groups include the unions and associations who defend women's rights. They told us that, in their opinion, the bill had many gaps in its current form. It is quite difficult for complainants to get a decision within a relatively short period of time. We were also reminded that three or four cases were currently before the courts, and had been before the courts for some 20 years.

In Quebec, we currently have the Employment Equity Act. Since that legislation was enacted, nobody has gone bankrupt and no company has closed its doors. On the contrary, employers are very comfortable with the legislation. I think a model along the same lines should be applied to all of Canada, to deal with the current problems and provide some protection for workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Members of the committee may remember that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women examined the pay equity task force report and recommended, at one time, that the recommendations be implemented.

If, Madam Chair, the researchers would like to go through and find it, they will discover that in fact the ministers of the day, Joe Fontana, Minister of Labour, and Irwin Cotler, Minister of Justice, committed to bringing in draft legislation to implement the pay equity as recommended by the task force. I can't recall whether their commitment was to bring the legislation to this committee or not, but there was a commitment to draft the legislation and precipitate a discussion on it so that it, as an issue, could move forward.

I will be supporting this recommendation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I understand some of the statements that are being made, but two wrongs don't make a right. The reality is that the Human Rights Commission, which has been dealing with all of these appeals, in fact stated that the legislation is ineffective because they haven't been able to deal with it. Women at Bell have now been fighting for 25 years, practically; the post office for as long. I know you say that there are others, more staff. It's still complaint based. It will take forever to do. The Human Rights Commission itself has said that.

While I understand that people talk about the cuts of the early 1990s, we can go on that little record for a long, long time. The reality is that we had found a $42 billion deficit. The cuts were made, but things were changed. On top of that, the former Prime Minister made a commitment to introduce legislation in the fall of 2005. Well, in the fall of 2005 we unfortunately went into an election.

That doesn't change the fact that two ministers and the former Prime Minister made that commitment. It doesn't change the fact that the current legislation, which is complaint based, is ineffective. It doesn't change the fact that the Human Rights Commission has said it doesn't work because they can't work with it. And it doesn't change the fact that two provinces have proactive legislation where in fact it is working, whereas the rest of the country doesn't.

Quite frankly, I think it's time to move on. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Mathyssen, then Ms. Smith, and Mr. Stanton, very briefly.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'll be very quick. There's another issue I need to bring up to the committee.

I will support this motion because, very clearly, we have a report from the 2004 committee and it provides the step-by-step means of achieving this. Very clearly, complaints-based legislation isn't working. After years of litigation, individuals are still not able to exercise their rights, because they can't afford to.

So we need to move on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Smith, very briefly.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

It's a very big issue, because members on this side of the House take pay equity very seriously. I don't want to throw stones, but the previous government had 13 years to do this and it wasn't done. We did study it. We did study it here in the Status of Women. We all agreed this was very important. We put the report in the House, and if you look at the reply when we tabled the report in the House, it did not make a strong commitment at all.

I would say that this report was done, and this is what we looked at. When we went into government, we found out that we already had a lot of the things that we needed in place, but the actual implementation was not there. Our minister got busy, and he implemented—We had dead legislation in the House of Commons, where no implementation program was put into place.

Having said that, I applaud some of the initiatives of our Quebec members. When they talk about what they've had, I would like very much to take a look at what they've had.

We will have to vote against this motion, because we have the pay equity up and running and we have the implementation program on the books right now. The minister is very set on making sure that women in the workplace are treated in a very fair and equitable way.

This motion is redundant. We've already had this motion, we've already had the report, we've already tabled the pay equity report in the House of Commons, and right now, with the pay equity initiative implementation plan that's in place right now, we need to see the improvements that are being made. If we go into something like this, it will take absolutely months and perhaps years to get new legislation, whereas now we're acting on what we have.

I would think that we need to table this motion and have more discussion on this so we know what we're doing, rather than going headlong into something that is going to hold up the pay equity, which is extremely important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Stanton, do you have something to add to what Ms. Smith said?

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I was going to say, Madam Chair, that this is a topic that deserves a robust discussion. I see the bells are ringing. You may want to consider finishing up with this and perhaps carrying this over to the next meeting. We'd be happy to do that.

Through the course of this discussion we've had, even with the economic security, we've seen a host of evidence that the wage gap is closing. We're up to the situation where we have some 86%—I, for one, would certainly like to go back and look at that government response—both of them in fact. We had a government response in 2005 and another one this year on those reports.

I don't know if the mover would consider that. Honestly, this is something that deserves more discussion.

I can keep talking—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'm going to ask Ms. Minna if she is willing to consider that or if she wants to call the question.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I want to say, Madam Chair, that regardless of the responses of the previous government, as far as I'm concerned they don't change anything, because things change. What I'm saying is that if it was wrong before, it's right to do this now. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I would like to call the question and get on with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I am calling the question.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I had the floor. I can keep talking until the end of the meeting, which would have been my right.