Status of Women Committee on May 8th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay, so pose the question, please. You're finished with your time in a minute or so, so could you close the question?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes. And I ask, Madam Chair, with the interruption, that my time be added to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We stopped the clock.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

There was a recent report in the media with respect to the Toronto District School Board, with respect to the role of minorities in the education system. I think it's very important to hear from your organization what steps, what studies, are being undertaken to address this issue. If you look at the nursing profession, if you look at the medical profession, they're becoming increasingly diverse, and I think that's something that is to be commended. Many other professions are becoming increasingly diverse. Unfortunately, I think the teaching profession has lagged, especially in cities like Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area, where I'm from. Where you have a population that is undergoing rapid change, it's pretty important to make sure that the teaching profession is reflective of the student body it's teaching.

I'd be interested to hear what initiatives you might be undertaking or you have undertaken in this regard.

Those are my two points, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I would like to tell the witnesses that you're here for the economic security of women. If you feel that the question is out of order, that's your prerogative. If you wish to respond from the perspective of the economic security of women, do so.

Thank you.

[John Staple]

It's difficult to respond to the issue of the economic security of women within the framework of that question. However, let me just say that I've appeared before a number of committees and, with all due respect, sir, a question is a question, but an effort to discredit a witness is something entirely different. Unfortunately, that's how I felt.

We are defenders of public education. There are members of our organization who are publicly funded and whose thrust in terms of the students they serve is within a religious context in the Catholic schools in Ontario, but that does not diminish in any respect our support for public education or the fact that all our members, including that organization, are staunch defenders of public education.

We inherit from the provinces the structure for education that we work within. Until the citizens of those jurisdictions change those structures, we will continue to work within them.

Yes, we are very acutely aware that we need to do a lot of work with respect to diversity of the teaching profession. We've done studies to that effect. We've done studies analyzing the diversity of the student population and the diversity of the teaching population, and in all of the jurisdictions we have offered some suggestions as to how we go about addressing that.

It's a very difficult thing to do. It's something we need to work harder at. We need to work with universities and with governments to present and provide the kinds of opportunities that would see the extent of the diversity of the teaching population work its way into the school system in the fashion that we would like.

We are so concerned about it that two major national conferences in two subsequent years have focused on that whole issue of diversity and inclusion. We know there is a problem; we are certainly addressing it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame DeBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Oliver. I would just like to tell you that I am quite aware of how difficult your job is. I worked for three years in a public health centre for the elderly as a social worker, and I had to manage the recall list of registered practical nurses. I can tell you what a puzzle that was and I also know about the precarious working conditions facing registered practical nurses working in public institutions in Quebec. It appears that these conditions are similar in Ontario. You have my full respect, and I think you are right to be fighting for better working conditions from your provincial government, because your problems do come under provincial jurisdiction. You want to be able to offer better services to people in institutions and to those who need your health care services.

I can try to explain this whole debate here about child care services—which I find quite surprising. What we see today—and you have a concrete example of that—is a collision between two different approaches. With the money it is paying the children, which, in my opinion, is more like a family allowance, the government is definitely helping families make ends meet, but it is in no way ensuring the economic security of women.

I have three children and they went to a child care facility. When I started sending them there, I was paying $200 a week, or 50% of what I was earning. When Quebec introduced $5-a-day child care, my economic capacity as a woman improved considerably. Under the program, I then paid $50 a week for my two children. So I had more money left to spend on their education, their clothing and their housing needs.

There is a certain lack of understanding between the government side and the parties on this side of the table. Day care centres in Quebec and elsewhere were established by women; not by the government, but rather by Quebec women who wanted to have access to the labour market to improve their economic security so that they would not have to depend on the father of their children in order to survive. That is a battle that women have waged, and I do not think that Mr. Harvey is aware of this fact.

Women established a network of child care centres, and the women working in them fought to improve their own wages, because they too were workers. We should emphasize that the Quebec child care network has not been in place that long as a public institution. We have a fine network that meets women's needs, allows them to improve their economic position and to join the labour market, and this is thanks in large part to the women of Quebec who fought to establish this network.

I worked in the area of health care in Quebec for 20 years, and when I hear people such as Mr. Harvey say that people should not feel negative impacts because of the reductions at Status of Women Canada, because the money has been invested in front-line services, I realize that for me, the expression "front-line services" means emergency food and other services, truly direct services. I think women need to learn to fight to express their rights, to speak out against abuse and to believe in their importance in society. Unfortunately, they still need support in all these areas.

I have just one question for you, Ms. O'Haire and Ms. Oliver. You have an opportunity to speak to the five Conservative members of Parliament. Speaking as women, and not as practical nurses or teachers, what demands would you like to make to the federal government, which is suppose to be listening to you? What type of measures would really allow women to improve their economic security?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Madame DeBellefeuille, your time is up. They have to answer the question quickly, then, in 35 seconds.

[Sheri Oliver]

I don't know if I'll be able to address it in 35 seconds, but I'll certainly try.

Thank you very much for those very kinds words. I do certainly agree that you have to be able to walk in those shoes to be able to understand perspective.

I'm trying to keep it in context of the nursing perspective while at the same time being a woman. Union issues primarily and education are really the two aspects that I can think of right now, and particularly I want to say that women can stand up. Women can do what needs to get done. We need the flexibility from employers to have the equal pay, the equal rights, the equal treatment for the equal work.

[Noreen O'Haire]

I can do it in five seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Sure, thanks.

[Noreen O'Haire]

What we want is the provision for adequately funded, universally accessible day care for all women and children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Mathyssen for five minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I feel compelled to apologize for what happened in committee today, and I want to thank you for your diplomacy and for your clarity.

I'd like to begin with Ms. Oliver, again. When you were presenting, you talked about the fact that the Government of Ontario provided certain incentives, and unfortunately there wasn't a great deal of uptake when it came to registered practical nurses, not as much as there was with RNs. I'm wondering about that. Why? What was that situation?

[Sheri Oliver]

It primarily extends to the lack of full-time employment that's available to the practical nurse in the province of Ontario.

What is it related to? It's related to perspective. You will see cyclical patterns where some employers, based on research from the United States, which I think I mentioned in my comments, believe that changing a model to a full RN model will impact positively on patient care, when in fact they're making decisions based on research that is not Canadian, that does not address a diverse population of nurses—I think, Mr. Chong, you addressed that—and they're not very well-founded decisions in terms of changing some of those complements of nursing skills mixes. What ends up is that employers are reticent to be able to put forth full-time employment.

To their defence, employers are grappling with how to be able to fit in providers with education, both RNs and RPNs, that is on a continuum. You have some education, professionals who have diploma-level education, some who have baccalaureate education. So to be able to define those into some kind of common ground must be very challenging for the employers.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

One of the other areas of profound concern to me is the lack of a national housing program. I wonder if you've done any research on, given any consideration, to how important it is, in terms of women's economic security, to have an affordable, secure home. This is the kind of national housing policy that we once had in this country and that is definitely missing, particularly as it pertains to the lone, single mom trying to raise a family and the reality of ever-increasing costs in regard to providing that home.

[Sheri Oliver]

Those things are really systemic. They impact not only on the everyday things like economic security, but on our emotional health, our physical health, and that translates to our family members, not just our children, but our entire family members.

Women will grapple with decisions, especially as single moms, between working and perhaps putting your child into a day care or with a babysitter you may or may not trust, but you know that you have to go to work. You have to make difficult decisions on whether you pay rent or pay child care. Those are some very difficult decisions when we talk about homelessness.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Do you have anything to add?

[John Staple]

We have a liaison in the form of loose coalitions and national organizations that are involved in housing issues. We are this year finding more and more about it and how it impacts on the other relevant issues of economic security that we've been observing. We find it particularly difficult to address in northern regions of Canada, so we've been focusing on that concern.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, we actually had some representatives from Inuit communities here last week, and they talked about the fact that people are provided with these little square boxes that are not habitable; they're sealed boxes. So children and families are in these sealed environments with no fresh air, and there's overcrowding to the point where sometimes 18 or 19 family members are living in these little sealed boxes.

So we have much to do in that regard.

[Noreen O'Haire]

Some of the work that John mentioned in terms of the Campaign 2000, if you listen to them, or Make Poverty History—our work with them gives us some peace there.

One interesting thing happened at our conference last Sunday. Our closing speaker was Tom Jackson, and he told us some stories and sang some songs for us. The night before, speaking with him, we learned that he's involved, as are other people, in affordable housing for aboriginal and Inuit people, so he told some very poignant stories. He's a fascinating humanitarian who has done so much good work in food banks before, and now is moving into housing.

So connecting with people like him is always inspiring. I think we can do more by highlighting that kind of good work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Stanton, for five minutes.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming and sharing your insights with us this afternoon.

This is to Noreen and John, first of all, on the question of the child care benefit. In the course of your discussion, you talked about even upwards of 200,000 day care spaces being advisable. You talked in terms of your displeasure with the $1,200 per year. I assumed from this—maybe you didn't say it outright, and correct me if I'm wrong—that you would consider that the public sector should in fact be paying more fully the cost of someone attending a day care centre, vis-à-vis the Quebec example, where day care is fully subsidized. So I drew that conclusion from your comments.

In terms of moving to that, in budget 2007 the government embarked on a program to bring fiscal balance to the provinces. This involved some $35 billion in transfers to the provinces for services that are within the provinces' control. Would you be aware that the provinces can in fact bring those kinds of services if they wish? This is child care services and the day care realm, albeit the government has played a role. Would you realize that in fact provincial governments can do this if they wish, as Quebec has?

[Noreen O'Haire]

I think we're more concerned with having the service for women and children, not with getting involved in a debate as to whether it's a provincial or federal responsibility.