Status of Women Committee on Oct. 16th, 2012

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

When a new employee starts—and you had indicated what the process is for them to know that a policy is in place—how do they know what is acceptable and not acceptable? Is it a sheet of paper they're given? Is it something that's orally explained to them so that they know what they should complain about or not complain about if there is an issue?

[Ross MacLeod]

That is outlined in the policy. Different departments will handle that in different ways, depending on their operational environment. There is no shortage of information available to employees, though, in terms of guides and the policy and so on.

For instance, when Treasury Board approved this new policy, emails and communications were sent out to deputy heads and heads of human resources. These were sent throughout departments and organizations around the federal government. I think no one should be able to claim that they didn't know this. Those materials are amply available.

I'll just add that the School of Public Service offers multiple courses on prevention of harassment, so there's no shortage of tools available for people if they want to use them.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Am I still okay?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

You said that they offer courses. Are these online courses, or is this a seminar-type course that makes them aware of what is going on?

[Ross MacLeod]

The school offers a number of different courses.

Martine, can you offer an explanation for this?

[Martine Glandon]

The courses offered by the Canada School of Public Service are mostly classroom sets, but departments may have some online courses as well. It varies from department to department.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

It's up to the department. Okay, great, thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

We now turn to the official opposition.

Ms. Ashton, you have seven minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much, and thank you very much for your patience this morning. I'm sure you understand that it's important that we know where we're going when we're here, and it's an ongoing effort to do so.

Mr. MacLeod, you brought up an interesting point on the 29% of people speaking of perceived harassment in the workplace. Do you know how much of that is sexual harassment?

[Ross MacLeod]

The question wasn't based on type of harassment. As you are aware, there are several kinds of harassment. It wasn't broken out by that. We had a limited number of questions we were able to ask in the survey and we left it at just one harassment question.

However, before they answered the question, employees were presented with the definition of harassment in the policy, so they read it and clearly understood what they were responding to.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Do you think it would be useful to have a question on sexual harassment?

[Ross MacLeod]

We were quite disappointed with the results of the survey this year with respect to that aspect. This has been a persistent result in previous public service surveys as well. We are designing the 2014 survey now, and it's certainly a question we'll be looking at.

Overall the results of the survey were very good. However, there were a couple of areas—this one in particular—that were disturbing, and we do want to have a look at that in a little more depth, because it's in contrast to what we know about reported cases. When more than a quarter of the public service is identifying that they feel they have been harassed, there's a disconnect there, and we need to get to the root of it.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I'm certainly glad to hear there is an intention to bring that in for 2014, especially because it's such a serious and often very difficult kind of harassment to come forward with.

Through this survey, or maybe from the work that you do, is there any indication as to why people refrain from...? Three hundred and fourteen complaints is certainly not representative of anywhere near 29%. Do you have any idea why people don't come forward with such allegations?

[Ross MacLeod]

We're not totally sure. However, we had another question in the survey about employees feeling free to initiate complaint processes and formal processes, and 40% of our employees said they were reluctant to do so. We think there's a connection between the two.

Again, that's something we need to drill down on a little more the next time around, because I'm worried that if the processes are there to help people and they're not using them, then it's hard to get at it.

Of course, what we want to do—and it's the objective of the policy—is prevention. It's better when it doesn't happen at all. However, when it does, people should feel free to use the processes that are there.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

We're aware, of course, of the policy that came out recently—just a few days ago, I guess. We've done some work to look at understanding the differences between the 2001 policy and the 2012 policy. One of the points that is different is that the 2001 policy mandates compliance, and I think the quote is that “departments/organizations must meet the requirements of this policy”.

The 2012 policy doesn't contain such a statement. It does state that the Treasury Board will monitor results, but it is certainly a point of concern that the emphasis on the word “must” and the overt emphasis on compliance are not there.

How is this policy better, especially when that kind of directive isn't there?

[Ross MacLeod]

There are a number of advantages in the new policy. One is that the old policy was a bit rigid in terms of how it could be applied in different organizational contexts. You can imagine that a small policy department would have a different operational environment than would a large operational one, for example. We provided some flexibility there so that people could target the issue a little more effectively.

In terms of compliance, which is part of the other question that I neglected to answer earlier, the Treasury Board framework on compliance applies to all departments with respect to Treasury Board policies, and there are a number of measures we can take against departments if they don't comply.

The change of wording that you refer to is actually part of a broader Treasury Board Secretariat approach to policy renewal in general. Deputy heads are very aware of their responsibilities under the various policies, and the compliance framework applies to all of them. We have a number of sanctions we can use against departments if they're not complying with the policies of the board in general, including this one.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Could you give us an example?

You spoke about the need to be more flexible in terms of operational needs, so how does that work? Would it be possible to give us an example, whether it's for a workplace here in Ottawa or for a smaller workplace associated with a federal department outside of the national capital? What do you mean by “being flexible” in terms of operational needs?

[Ross MacLeod]

If you consider a white-collar environment like a policy department, you would expect the understanding of these issues to be a bit more sophisticated among the employees and managers, and you would expect a different kind of comportment there. In an organization where you're dealing with frequent conflict—at a border, in a penal institution—you could see different situations arising in which people could be harassed.

I'll point out too that harassment doesn't always come from a supervisor. It can come from a client. It can come from a colleague. It can come from someone who works for you as well. You can imagine that with the various types of work environments the federal government has, different circumstances can arise, and so they do.

I think the important thing there is that now deputies have an opportunity to get into the specific situations that they're managing and actually do something about them. Unfortunately, the previous policy didn't really allow that. It wasn't flexible enough for them to do that.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You have 45 seconds left.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

You bring up an interesting point in terms of different workplaces. With respect to the RCMP, for example, the commissioner himself has talked about culture that needs to change. Given the fact that it is a high-pressure workplace that is different from others, would you agree that in some of these workplaces, addressing that overall culture rather than a specific incidence of sexual harassment is needed, and perhaps Treasury Board could play a role?

[Ross MacLeod]

From our perspective, culture is the key. We think that culture underlies respect for people. Lack of respect underlies harassment. If you change the culture and create a respectful work environment, then we'll see change. That's very much the theme we're pursuing in dealing with departments on this issue.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Great. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

Now back to the Conservative side.

Ms. O'Neill Gordon, you have seven minutes.