Status of Women Committee on April 30th, 2013

[Ron Swain]

With this legislation they would have to.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Did they engage you prior to, I guess, last week, or up until last week?

[Ron Swain]

No, I didn't.... My circumstance is quite unique, because under Bill C-3, which is a brand-new piece of legislation for people to get their status back, it's going back to discriminatory actions against aboriginal women, which is how my family lost their status. So this is not just an issue where women are being neglected and are not represented properly now. It goes back many, many generations. I'm a product of that.

I wasn't part of our band when they were doing the consultations, so I wasn't consulted.

The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples represents people who do live, and can live, and do have a relationship with first nations communities. There is consultation that has taken place with us, and we put forward recommendations that we support this legislation for a number of reasons—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I understand.

You just spoke about why you support the legislation, but if I can go back to a presentation that Betty Ann Lavallée made to the Senate committee, one of the points she raised was that she didn't see provisions in this bill creating emergency shelters. What we're hearing from a number of people is that there is no commitment to non-legislative measures. Bill S-2 still does not have any component containing provisions for emergency shelters. How is CAP okay with that? How do you feel about that?

[Ron Swain]

When I made my presentation earlier, I said there's no perfect piece of legislation; even this piece of legislation is not perfect. In a perfect world they would talk about some of the support systems that women need, but lacking that, I don't think you should jeopardize the whole piece of legislation. It's too important an issue to fall off the table because it is not perfect.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Going back to the non-legislative measures, your band membership, as you mentioned, is in Swan Lake. You've worked in remote first nations in Ontario, and there are similar stories in remote first nations in Manitoba and in other parts of the country. We're talking about marital breakup, people in a very vulnerable situation needing access to certain services.

I have a few questions. In your experience, is there enough access to legal aid on first nations? Is there enough access to policing services? I understand there are different arrangements in Ontario, but as you know in the Manitoba situation, it's the RCMP. Do you think there are enough women's shelters on reserve? In your experience, are those services adequate, as they are in urban centres and often in cases on reserve?

[Ron Swain]

I'll speak to the first question about legal aid.

In my experience, there are not enough legal aid systems all across Canada. The provinces haven't stepped up to provide a significant amount of legal aid. I've known people who were turned down for legal aid; they couldn't access legal aid.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

How about if you're on reserve, though? Is that worse than being in an urban centre, where you can walk down to the legal aid office?

[Ron Swain]

In almost every aspect of being on reserve and being an aboriginal person in Canada, you have fewer services. But I will still speak in favour of this legislation, even if it doesn't speak to the totality of what we're talking about. If you're talking about legal aid and shelters, some of the—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Do you know how many women's shelters there are on reserve across Canada?

[Ron Swain]

I don't know, but from my experience in almost every community I've worked near or on, there is access to shelters. Unfortunately, I know from my own experience—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

If I can just add, for the record, there are 40 out of 663 first nations. That's not close. I mean on reserve, and maybe Betty Ann Lavallée mentioned it. If we're talking about safety—

[Ron Swain]

I was going to say—I didn't finish—in my experience both on and off reserve, there are not enough women's shelters. It's unfortunate in our society that we're talking about there not being enough women's shelters in Canada.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to Madame O'Neill Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being with us this morning. I'm sure we all recognize that you have a lot of experience to offer with your line of work, and with the fact that you, too, had two breakups. You can see the importance of this bill, and I'm happy to see that you spoke of the importance of Bill S-2.

Now, you know and I know that our government has always sent a clear message that violence against women, wherever it occurs, is something we cannot tolerate. But women on reserves are being abused and victimized, without the protection they need, and especially without the rights and protections that all Canadians receive. Our government is really working hard to make this happen, so there is less violence and so that women have their rights.

MP Ashton mentioned that no consultations had taken place, but we know that 103 consultations across 76 communities have taken place, at a cost of $8 million for the government. That is a prime example to show that our government is sincere and really wants to make this happen.

Would you agree that Bill S-2 would provide first nations' women with matrimonial property protections and would provide them with the rights on reserves that are similar to those enjoyed by all other women in Canada? That is our objective here, because we need these women to enjoy the same protection as other women have across Canada.

[Ron Swain]

Yes, that's why we support this legislation. It's one of the first times that you're actually speaking of a process to address breakdowns and the division of property. More important, we are talking about a process that can address the immediate support and protection of women who are suffering violence in first nations communities.

It also speaks to the fact that right now there's no protection for probably a majority of women in first nations communities. There's silence on it; there's no federal legislation and provincial jurisdiction doesn't apply. There are few first nations communities that have actually adopted their own laws to address this important issue. We believe this legislation would address the split-up of property and the protection of women who find themselves in situations of violence.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Within my constituency, we have three reserves. In my last four years, before I became a member of Parliament, I taught at a school on a reserve. I, too, saw many breakups; I encountered them with the children.

What do you see in the bill that will provide protection for the children? I focus on that. Lots of times these children are really in quite a state, trying to come to school and put up with things that are going on. Do you see Bill S-2 as something that is going to help the children as well?

[Ron Swain]

When we examine the bill in detail, we see that it makes a priority of the protection of children as well as their connection and continuity within the community. The bill emphasizes safety for children and their connection to the community, which should not be severed.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Did your friend have something to say?

[Julian Morelli, Communications Director, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples]

No, I was just thinking.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

It looked as though you were about to tell him something.

[Ron Swain]

Also, what's good about the bill is that it actually talks about something that is important in our culture. We tend to take care of our parents, grandparents, aunts. If there are other people to be provided for, the legislation speaks to taking that into account also.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

I saw that a lot where I was in Burnt Church. Grandparents would be living there and that would be a disruption for them as well. All of this has to be considered in this bill that we are trying to bring forth.

Do you agree that now is the right time to ensure that people living on the reserve have matrimonial real property protections similar to those in effect everywhere else in Canada? It probably should have been done sooner.

[Ron Swain]

I was just going to say it should have been done a generation ago. Like any other piece of legislation, it's not perfect. But I think it's important to push this through and get this legislation approved, because at least it's a beginning in speaking to the issues of protection and matrimonial breakup.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

From my riding, I have not had any objections to any of this. This needs to go forth for these women. They need help in all areas, but especially in this one. I realize there's always more to do, and our government realizes that too. I feel this is one big step in the right direction.

What factors are usually considered, as it stands now, when there is a breakup? For example, how are the children considered? Is this taken into consideration as it stands now?