Evidence of meeting #14 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gba.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you to all four witnesses. This is really rich.
I compliment our analyst for helping to find all this on-the-ground expertise. It's extremely helpful.
I have a couple of quick questions.
Dr. Hanson, can you talk a little bit more about what we would gain from more deeply engaging the expertise around civil society in some of these processes? You certainly made a compelling argument that siloing it to just the good people we have inside the bureaucracy hasn't gotten us as far ahead as we'd like to be.
Associate Professor, Adult Education, University of Regina and President Elect, Canadian Research Institute for the Advancement of Women (CRIAW), As an Individual
Actually, I think that question would speak to the earlier ones about who might have the knowledge that's necessary.
Part of it is about what kind of process do we set up. I'm an adult educator, I'm a pedagogue. It's not what we do, it's how we do it. How do we get women's grassroots organizations or grassroots organizations together? How do we talk to them, and how do we include what they say into the kinds of policies and programs that get developed, and how would that look very different...?
The policies and programs that would come out of that kind of process would be very different. India is a country to look at, for example, where they've done participatory budgeting with thousands of people. In Brazil it was 40,000 people...participatory budgeting.
There are examples that exist of how this can be done. I think part of it is about finding people who are invested in making those kinds of participatory processes and engaging people in civil society, so that people become engaged in democracy. It's not an act outside of our lives; it's part of it.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Dr, Hankivsky, can you talk a little more about what we have lost by not providing adequate funding for research within Status of Women, and associated with that, about the capacity that we have inside the department generally? What could we have, if we committed to that, especially around doing some of the post-GBA work that you're suggesting, to make sure that when, for example, we use GBA to assess what kind of infrastructure funding this government should be investing in...all kinds pieces that could be used...? How do we then do the work to find out whether it got the result we wanted?
Professor, School of Public Policy, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
We've just talked about the role of civil society, and I would say that successful GBA is a three-legged stool: you need folks in government and you need civil society representation, but you also need the research community.
I think where there's a really missed opportunity is creating those networks in a relationship with researchers across the country who are working in various areas of policy, who have their finger on the pulse, have the knowledge, have the statistics, have the evidence that can inform the work that analysts need to do on the ground—sometimes very quickly—because this is their work.
I've always thought it's a missed opportunity not to create those relationships, so when you need the information, you know where to go and who to ask, and it's at their fingertips. It just seems like a waste of time for analysts to be doing work that's already being done so well in academic settings, as one example.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Dr. Cavaghan, I think we've had a little back and forth on this with some of the ministries we've spoken with. Can you talk a little in big picture terms around what is lost if we don't effectively do GBA ahead of policy or funding decisions?
Are we at as much risk as I think we are of not having the programs actually target the people who need them and get the best outcomes?
Post Doctoral Fellow, Department of Political Science, Radboud University, As an Individual
Yes, if I've understood your own questions rightly, in my contribution, I'm saying that gender-based analysis needs to contribute to the actual vision of a policy.
Certainly, if you look at a variety of gender mainstreaming, like gender budgeting, where, frequently, when a budget is mainstreamed, it just comes in at the last minute. For example, it gets plugged in and is like a social policy that is actually tackling problems created by top-line, mainstream government policy.
Did that answer your question, or do you want me to refine that in some way?
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
No, I think that's helpful that we really should get further ahead around making sure that programs are targeted in the way that we need to.
Post Doctoral Fellow, Department of Political Science, Radboud University, As an Individual
Yes, it would lead to different actions being taken. For example, in research policy we saw new research being conducted that wouldn't otherwise have been done if gender mainstreaming hadn't been quite effectively implemented.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Ms. Rowan-Campbell, our analyst has included the recommendations that your committee made in 2005 around legislated targets and commitments. I believe I heard you say in your testimony today that you still believe that direction is the way to go, and maybe even more so given that we've had another 10 years of failure.
Is it fair to say that you would make the same recommendations to this committee as you did to Parliament in 2005?
As an Individual
I might make some changes, but I think for the core of them, yes.
We may have different names or slightly different structures because things change, but the intent would need to be the same. We have not done very well moving forward.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
This was the bill to ensure enhanced gender equality outcomes across government, including the use of gender-based analysis, monitoring, and reporting. The bill would call for additional accountability and enforcement measures.
You also talk about the Speech from the Throne and the budget making very specific commitments around policy priorities and the rigorous application of GBA. You're ahead of your time, or else we're really behind our time.
As an Individual
I think we've unfortunately fallen behind. I do want to say that when I say GBA, I really mean a great deal more—in fact, even more than what I see in GBA+—and I always have meant that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
We're going over to my Liberal colleagues, with Ms. Sahota for seven minutes.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you doctors for being here today.
I have to say that this is one of the most interesting conversations we've had on GBA to date, so thank you for your research and your words.
I sense a lot of frustration, and rightfully so, because you have been studying this and advocating for it for a long time. There is a lot of frustration I think among members of this committee as well, because we're trying to figure out how to rightfully implement this and keep from spinning our wheels talking about the same thing over and over again.
We keep hearing that we're falling behind and that we're not doing as well as we should have been doing 15 years ago. There was a question raised by my colleague about international standards or what's happening across the rest of the globe.
I'd like to get a better sense of who's doing it right. I heard a little bit about Scandinavian countries. Have any of you researched or looked into these countries in particular and what they are implementing, how they're doing their monitoring, and how it has been a success?
Anybody can take this.
Professor, School of Public Policy, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I'll just speak to the research that I've done.
I would agree with some of the earlier comments that no country has it right. I think what we can look at are some good examples and case studies from different countries where the implementation has gone well. I also think it's very true that the train has left the station in terms of really thinking explicitly about factors beyond gender in a more systemic fashion.
The U.K. for example has an equality act that has rolled all of the different forms of discrimination into one framework that's now being legislated across the country. Now, of course, it's being imperfectly implemented. However, the conceptual shift has happened.
I think different countries have different lessons. Not any one country has this right. Everyone is struggling.
Associate Professor, Adult Education, University of Regina and President Elect, Canadian Research Institute for the Advancement of Women (CRIAW), As an Individual
I will say three things on that.
First, I think I gave the example of South Africa where the status of women falls under the presidency. It's also a full department, not an agency. I think those are key foundational pieces in terms of making this sustainable.
UN Women is now looking at training for gender equality and they've been consulting people. I've been involved in those consultations with gender training experts from throughout the world.
I think probably the best documents there are the ones coming out of the EU, so I would suggest looking at those.
As an Individual
I would just add, look at what the Commonwealth has been doing. Some of it's good and some of it's not enough. It covers a number of countries and a number of years. Sometimes what you really learn is what hasn't worked and why, and that in itself is very useful.
The other problem I have is that once again, in the questions I hear people asking about gender training, including UN Women, one size fits all. We just talked about the fact that it doesn't work, will not work, and that we have to make a shift. This is something concerning which, if anybody has an input into what UN Women is doing, because it will overarch a lot of the SDGs, we should get our words in there very fast.
Post Doctoral Fellow, Department of Political Science, Radboud University, As an Individual
I would turn the question around slightly. You're asking where the good lessons are, and I hear the other panellists talking in ambitious terms, which I very much welcome, about GBA+ and these kinds of things, but it is useful to think about why the policy hasn't happened.
Surely it's because of widespread disinterest in the fairness goals that are being discussed. I would encourage us to think or talk more openly about the fact that, certainly within Europe, the majority of the population doesn't identify as feminists, doesn't understand gender, and probably doesn't want this policy to happen.
We come back again to how incredibly important political will is, and my understanding is that in Canada, potentially there could be political will at this point. That is maybe an area in which Canada could become a leader again. If you're asking on what basis Canada can do this well, I think it might be because you have a moment of political will.
Liberal
Liberal
Eva Nassif Liberal Vimy, QC
My question is for Ms. Rowan-Campbell, and it was already raised by Ms. Malcolmson.
Eleven years after the recommendations made in the 2005 report, what recommendations could we make specifically today to change things?
As an Individual
I would like to see you revisit all of the recommendations and sit down to discuss which of them, in the current fiscal context and current culture of acceptance, you think would move things forward most. It's not really a judgment that I can make, because I'm very uncertain. We've come out of a time when there's been no interest really in equality, in visiting that sort of approach. We need to see how much wind now we have in our sails and how much we can push forward. I think you would be able to judge that probably a lot better than I would. Then do the things that you can do fastest and easiest; start there.