Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I want to welcome everyone to meeting 22 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

I call the meeting to order. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The rules are as usual.

I remind members that they should address their comments through the chair. The interpretation will work very much like in all of our committee meetings. When you're speaking, please speak slowly and clearly, and when you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I want to welcome our witnesses today.

Welcome to the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, who is here along with Jody Thomas, the deputy minister, and Lieutenant-General Wayne Eyre, the acting chief of the defence staff. We also have with us Rear-Admiral Geneviève Bernatchez, the judge advocate general for the Canadian Armed Forces, and Dr. Denise Preston, the executive director for the sexual misconduct response centre.

Each of you will have time to make your opening remarks. I assume that it will be the minister first, for five minutes.

Then we'll begin our rounds of questions.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

Sexual misconduct remains a serious issue in our military, and the recent allegations against senior military leaders are incredibly concerning. There are points that I hope all members of this committee agree upon. Sexual misconduct, sexual violence, assault and harassment are unacceptable. They are unacceptable in Canadian society. They are not acceptable in the Parliament of Canada. They are definitely not acceptable in the Canadian Armed Forces or the Department of National Defence.

I look forward to the recommendations of this committee to see what more we can do. I believe it is important for the committee to hear from experts such as Rear-Admiral Rebecca Patterson, Dr. Denise Preston, Professor Maya Eichler and Brigadier-General Atherton, all of whom would be able to provide their own expertise to help the committee develop strong, concrete recommendations.

Sexual misconduct, harassment and inappropriate behaviour are not acceptable. We must call them out for what they are: an abuse of power. Such behaviour is contrary to our values as Canadians and harmful to the Canadian Forces operational effectiveness. We want to prevent it. We want to be there for survivors and their support networks. We want to ensure that those who come forward feel safe, supported and confident that they will be heard when they report sexual misconduct and harassment.

Eliminating all forms of misconduct and abuse of power and creating a safe work environment for everyone in the defence team has always been a top priority for me as Minister of National Defence. However, recent media reports show that many members of the Canadian Armed Forces still do not feel safe to come forward. We know we must do more to make sure that every Canadian Armed Forces member feels safe to come forward and that we will be ready to support them when they do.

We are committed to addressing all allegations, no matter the rank and no matter the position, while also providing the best support possible to those who have been affected. That's why we must continue pressing forward with our mission to eliminate all forms of sexual misconduct in all ranks. It's why we're moving forward with an independent reporting structure to look at all allegations, as I noted earlier this month. We have put in place a wide range of services to support those who have been impacted, as well as a number of ways they can report incidents.

I'd like to tell you about some of the resources that are available now.

For both military and civilian members, we have services like the employee assistance program and the member assistance program, which provide 24/7 access to professional, short-term counselling for affected defence team members and their families. Additionally, the sexual misconduct response centre is a key resource for those in our organizations who are affected by sexual misconduct. It is independent from the military chain of command and reports directly to the deputy minister of national defence. Although its primary mandate is to serve Canadian Armed Forces members, the SMRC offers 24/7 confidential support and counselling services to anyone who reaches out.

Dr. Preston and her team help members navigate the various support services available to them, both inside and outside the department. They can help members access the right mechanisms to report incidents of sexual misconduct, including the military liaison team, which is made up of a military police liaison officer, a special military advisor and a military liaison officer.

Those who work at SMRC are dedicated to their work. They are experts in their field and can give members advice about how to make a complaint or about what is involved in an investigative process. They can facilitate reporting if the member chooses to do so. The SMRC can also assign a dedicated counsellor to support members through the process, including advocating for them, accompanying them to appointments and assisting them with workplace accommodations.

They are also working with affected members to develop new programs and create a national survivor support strategy. The SMRC offers crucial expert guidance and recommendations that shape the policies and programs that target sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. It advises us on how to evaluate and report on their effectiveness.

Beyond the SMRC, members can also reach out to chaplain services, military family resource centres, the employee assistance program, the family information line or anyone across the chain of command to get the help they need.

These resources are critical to supporting those affected by sexual misconduct, but they are just part of our larger efforts to build a safe and inclusive workplace for all members of our defence team. We're working to eliminate the toxic masculinity that forms part of our military culture and keeps us from moving forward, the outdated and toxic traditions that valorize toughness and aggression over emotional intelligence and co-operation, and any part of our culture that contributes to bullying, harassment and other inappropriate behaviours.

Identifying and eliminating these harmful cultural dynamics is a key feature of the path to dignity and respect, our culture change strategy designed to prevent and address sexual misconduct in the military. Sexual misconduct must never be minimized, ignored or excused. We must prevent it from happening in the first place. We must reduce the risks and threats to people, their health and their well-being. This is one important step in making our institution more progressive, welcoming and inclusive.

At the same time, we remain committed to increasing the number of women that we recruit, retain and promote in our ranks. Women belong at every level of our organization. I'm proud of the leadership we are seeing in both our institution and our operations. We know that having a diversity of voices at the table makes us more agile and effective.

We know we have to keep pushing forward. We still have a lot of work to do. We cannot rest, because as Canadian society evolves, the Canadian Armed Forces must evolve with it. We need to prevent any form of misconduct from occurring. This can only happen with true culture change. That means having more diversity in leadership roles. In 2015 the Canadian Armed Forces had six women general or flag officers. Now we have 14, and soon we will have the first woman vice-chief of the defence staff. Creating a pipeline for women leaders has been one of my top priorities, because this will make the change permanent, outlasting any government and outlasting any minister.

Madam Chair, real, concrete and important steps are being taken to eliminate sexual misconduct from all corners of our organization, but our efforts will not stop here. We must and we will do more. Trust has been broken, and it's going to take some serious work to rebuild it. We are focused on doing everything possible to prevent and eliminate sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. We will eliminate the culture of toxic masculinity that still exists. We will make sure those who have experienced misconduct feel safe and supported when they come forward. We will build a more inclusive, welcoming Canadian Armed Forces that better reflect and represent the Canadians they protect each and every day.

We know we must take bold action to provide everyone on the defence team with a safe and respectful work environment, one where dignity and respect for all is embraced by each person, and one that retains the positive aspects of the Canadian Armed Forces culture that we see today—a flexible, dedicated, professional force that is ready to help at a moment's notice, at home and abroad.

Madam Chair, thank you for your time. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thanks so much, Minister.

We will begin our rounds of questioning. To help you out, when there are 30 seconds left, you will see the card. I will try to be kind and gentle as I cut you off.

We'll start with Ms. Alleslev for six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, the staff cannot hear on the phone line. Can someone look into that? Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Could the technician take a look at that? Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before this committee.

There's no question that we all agree that any form of inappropriate behaviour, abuse of authority or misconduct cannot be tolerated in the Canadian Forces. We also have an expectation of our elected officials that they will ensure that it is a workplace free of harassment, and that those who may have committed offences are investigated and held accountable.

As the elected minister responsible for national defence, are you responsible for holding all those who have committed infractions accountable?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, it is important for all elected officials, including me, to make sure we create an environment free of harassment and free of sexual harassment, and to make sure everybody can succeed.

This is why, as elected officials, we want to make sure we have put policies in place and made the appropriate changes to make sure we can hold people accountable.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Were you aware of the concerns in the vetting process in the previous government when Vance was appointed CDS?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I want to make sure I got the question right. Is this about General Vance's vetting process when he became chief of the defence staff?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

When you became Minister of National Defence, were you made aware of the previous government's vetting process and any concerns that arose from that regarding General Vance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, I was not, Madam Chair.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Can you confirm, Minister, as the elected official responsible for National Defence, that currently no senior officers are, or have, acted in an abuse of authority or any sexual misconduct and not been held accountable for those offences?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, any type of misconduct needs to be reported to the independent agencies, including the police. I am not briefed on ongoing investigations. One thing I can assure you, Madam Chair, is that we will always hold people to account in making sure the proper processes are put in place to ensure the data is thoroughly investigated.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Is every complaint investigated and every infraction that you're made aware of investigated, Mr. Minister?

Is that your testimony?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, every person has the right to be heard to make sure that any allegations are brought forward to appropriate independent agencies so they can be independently investigated by the appropriate authority.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Were you made aware of the concerns regarding Admiral Norman?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, when it came to Admiral Norman I was advised only at a later date that the RCMP investigation had started.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Were you made aware of the results of the RCMP investigation into Admiral Norman?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I am not briefed on investigations—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Were you made aware of the results of the investigation, when Admiral Norman was charged?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, just like the public, I learn of the outcome and any type of result only when it goes through an appropriate court proceeding.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

When the chief of the defence staff made the decision to suspend Admiral Norman, were you advised?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes, I was.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Why did you not suspend General Vance when you were made aware of allegations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I stated, first of all, in the case of Admiral Norman, I was advised by the chief of the defence staff at that time that an investigation had been started and a decision had been made.

In this case, when formal allegations were brought forward by the former ombudsman, I immediately took it to the appropriate independent authorities so it could be investigated. Information was not provided at that time—