Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, when I give directions to the Canadian Armed Forces when it comes to all options being on the table, we need to look at policies. For example, we need to look at the independent panel on systemic racism, gender bias and LGBTQ rights. They're going to be looking at the systemic issues. What are the changes we need to make? What policy changes do we need to make? Where are the resources we need, up to and including legislative changes? This is where the military justice review by Justice Fish is going to be extremely important.

Ultimately, we need to find out exactly where those issues are, but more importantly, no single report is going to fix this. What we need to create is an evergreen process so that, as things change, we can continually change with them. One solution we provide may fix a problem one time, but we also know that society evolves. We need to have flexibility in our policies so we can continually change and make sure resources are always put there. If we do this, we can eventually create that culture change.

I'm hopeful that we will, because the operational effectiveness of the Canadian Armed Forces will be impacted, as you know.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

I have a quick question for either Ms. Thomas or Dr. Preston.

For people who are experiencing sexual misconduct, what process does a member have to come forward? If a member doesn't feel comfortable, is there another way they can get their concerns addressed?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, you're out of time for the answer, so we're going to go to Madame Larouche.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Minister Sajjan, you're saying today that the appropriate process was to contact the Privy Council Office. On March 12, you said that it was to contact the military police. In February, you said that you couldn't talk about the appropriate process. There's some inconsistency here.

So I'll turn to you, Mr. Eyre. If one of your peers were to face allegations, who do you think should lead the investigation? Can the minister take action against officers of your rank?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, from my perspective, the Canadian Forces national investigation service has the mandate to investigate all allegations of a criminal nature.

Thank you.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Is this the case, regardless of the rank of the person against whom the allegations are made?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, it's regardless of rank.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Minister Sajjan, you said that politicians shouldn't conduct investigations. We're in agreement. Right now, it's necessary to take action to change the culture in the military. The Privy Council Office is indeed a very political entity. So who can take action?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, Minister Sajjan.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, this is actually a very important question.

When somebody has any type of concern, complaint or serious allegation, up to and including sexual assault, there should be one place they go to get the appropriate support. That way they're not looking at who to call and where it is they need to go. It's a one-door process from where they can be guided with the appropriate support and ask for an investigation, whether it's a chain of command issue....

This is something we're working on now. We already have the processes currently in place. Obviously, we need to make some serious changes to those processes. What we need to do moving forward is to have one place somebody comes to. This is something we're working on now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Minister, you said that the PCO couldn't move forward in the investigation that the ombudsperson brought to you because, under General Vance, everybody knew about it and the names were important.

Do you believe that survivors who fear reprisals from their superiors should be forced to disclose their names in order for any allegation to be investigated?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, first of all, I can't say what PCO did or didn't do.

However, when it comes to the investigation, the ombudsman also knows that the investigation can be launched without identifying somebody. CFNIS and police agencies do this all the time.

In this case here, in the ombudsman's directive, it clearly states that. You can actually go forward and make a complaint. It can be started.

The judge advocate general can maybe answer to provide more clarity to that.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Sorry, I just want to slip in. Before, you said that the PCO couldn't move forward with the investigation because they didn't have the name and they didn't have the details. Now you're saying that you didn't know what the PCO had or how they could or couldn't move forward.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No. What I said.... Based on the ombudsman's own testimony, Madam Chair, the ombudsman did not provide the information, and, by his own words, he said the information was not actionable.

Ultimately, it's not up to us as elected politicians to decide where and what should happen. It is an independent agency to look at a proper process that needs to take place.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'm hearing that there's, sadly, this key difference between given authority versus the responsibility and taking responsibility.

I see that you, as Minister of Defence, have a responsibility. You said yourself that you have responsibility to fix these systems.

Going forward, if there's still an ombudsman and if this happens again, would you continue to ignore an allegation? Would you follow the same process, or would you make changes to what you did in the past?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, no politician should ever be involved in an investigation.

In the ombudsman's directives themselves, the ombudsman can go to—and it clearly states this—the judge advocate general, the CFNIS, or the military police. They can also go to the provost marshal. The former ombudsman did not take those options and came directly to me. In the directives, it doesn't state “go to the Minister of National Defence”.

When we say that when it comes to any allegations, the ombudsman is independent of the chain of command, that's exactly what it means.

When he came to me, I gave the direct advice to go to those agencies. More importantly, we followed up with the independent agency, with the Privy Council, immediately, and they followed up the next day. The ombudsman did not provide the information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you, Minister.

Now we're going to Ms. Shin for five minutes.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before us in committee today.

This is obviously a topic that we are very interested in seeing a resolution to, but I feel it is very important that there is more clarity in terms of responsibility here.

In your testimony at defence committee, you said that all men and women in uniform deserve a CDS who behaves to the highest standard of conduct.

Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, so we're on the same page with that.

You also stated that you are the direct boss of the CDS.

Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Does the CDS serve at the pleasure of the Governor General, or is it your responsibility?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I do not make the selection. I could provide some more clarity on that, if you like.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm trying to get clarity on what you're trying to say about your responsibility. My concern is that we're trying to bring about a cultural shift. You keep bringing that up. You also bring up a lot about process, how you depend on a process. You don't want to bring clarity to that responsibility. You're just talking about process.

A shift in culture comes when we can transcend the process, when we recognize a responsibility. It was three years before General Vance was suspended. To me, that speaks volumes about abdication of responsibility.

Through this process, do you feel that you could have perceived this a little differently? Your answers consistently show that you're not owning up to the reality that you're not taking action to create a shift in the culture. The longer you continue to create confusion around responsibility—the longer you continue to dodge responsibility this way or that—it's not going to change. If it doesn't come from the top, if you can't just take the higher road, it's not going to happen.

If you keep repeating the same points—I'm just sensing you're still not owning up to this—how do you expect the culture to shift? Are you not making it more difficult for yourself to actually take action? You're continually defending the fact that you didn't take action. The reality is it was three years before General Vance was suspended.

I would like to hear from you as a genuine person who actually cares about women and this toxic masculinity culture and who wants that to shift. I would like to hear you speak from your heart about how you could proceed differently from this point forward. I want you to show us some authentic conviction that there will be a change. I'm not convinced. Talking about processes all day, it's not going to happen until we, as people and as leaders, and you, as Minister of National Defence, can actually take a step that transcends the process.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, first of all, I want to thank you very much for the very topical question. This is something I have not only taken very seriously from day one but also had the experience inside the Canadian Armed Forces showing why that culture change is absolutely needed. This is why, from day one, when I came in, we've been looking at how we're going to create that type of culture change. Passing Bill C-77 was so important to victims because—