Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you for that.

I'll go back to General Eyre with this question, and I want to hear from General Allen also on this. When we look at recruitment, this is so important. There has been a lot of media, a lot of politicization, a lot of attacks directed at the minister, but in terms of the family here, how do we deal with assuring that young men and women who want to have a career in the Canadian Armed Forces are safe?

What is your message to them today, moving forward, that this is a good career for them?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I think it's just that. This is a good career for them. We are seized with making a difference and making sure that they can not only see themselves in the organization, but truly feel part of it.

I'll be quite frank here. One of the challenges we have is attraction. Over the course of the pandemic, our recruiting throughput has greatly shrunk. Over the course of the last year, it's about a third of what we normally have, so we're in a bit of a recruiting deficit right now. We are still very much prioritizing diversity, but the challenge is attraction.

I'll go back to one of my previous comments about this becoming a national security issue, existential for us, because of the increasing threats in our society. Therefore, I believe this recruiting challenge goes beyond the military, and I would ask all of you as parliamentarians to engage with your constituents and help us with recruiting diversity into our ranks, help us with recruiting all Canadians and showing that this is service to their country and we need them.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Thank you for your suggestions. We look forward as a committee to hearing more witnesses with solutions to move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank Lieutenant-General Eyre and Lieutenant-General Allen once again for joining us today.

Yes, Mr. Eyre, I was referring to Bill C-65. I know that you're looking at workplace harassment and Bill C-77, which amends the National Defence Act and makes related changes. I gather that work will be done once the bills have been implemented. If you want to add anything, you can do so.

When I was talking about an external oversight committee, I was referring to a recommendation in Marie Deschamps' report, which dates back to 2015 and which recommended the creation of an independent body to handle reports of sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces.

According to a March 9, 2021, article in the Globe and Mail, the Government of Canada was looking at creating an independent body to investigate allegations of sexual misconduct, racism and discrimination. The article talked about current cases of sexual misconduct that affected various communities, including indigenous and LGBTQ+ communities, along with racialized women.

What structure is currently in place to handle reports of sexual misconduct and what's the reporting relationship between this structure and the Canadian Armed Forces?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, that is an excellent question, and one for which I do not have the answer at this point. This has to be part of our deliberate plan going forward, looking at the efficacy of an external oversight committee like that, but I do not have an answer at this point.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Perfect.

Ms. Allen, you can answer the question too, if you want.

How could an independent investigative body help improve the process for reporting sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces?

Ms. Allen, as a woman, you may have an opinion about an independent process.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

There certainly is great value that can come from external resources in providing expertise, advice and knowledge as to how we can best support individuals who have been affected by sexual misconduct in the military, as well as any form of harassment and discrimination.

We should continue to be seeking the type of input that guides the plans we will have moving forward on how we are going to address some of the institutional changes we may want to implement to create that dialogue and to have those voices be heard. At the same time, I think we want to make sure we're listening to internal voices that are complemented by the external voices as part of that conversation.

As it pertains—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry. That's your time.

I was so enthralled with all the answers that I forgot we were in round two and that was only two and a half minutes for Madame Larouche.

Now we're going to Ms. Mathyssen for two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I wanted to expand a bit on the fact that we have seen incredible losses, even just last week with Lieutenant-Colonel Taylor. Have you thought about putting in place things that can be improved upon to identify and support people who haven't quite got there, who hopefully have not left yet but are almost at that breaking point of leaving their careers? Or are there mechanisms already?

What protocols or processes do you have in place? What supports do you have in place to help identify and support the women who are almost at that point but whom you could stop and recognize to correct things and provide the support they need to ensure this incredible resource isn't lost?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, this is a very troubling issue.

I had the privilege of serving with Lieutenant-Colonel Taylor. I've been in contact with her over the last few days. She's a tremendous officer. I saw her in combat in Kandahar, commanding a company of 100 to 120 plus soldiers in probably one of the most dangerous places in Afghanistan.

Our exchange was one of mutual respect, but what I said was that I respect and support her decision. That's a message to anybody who is in that situation. Everybody has a personal calculus as to whether they can change the situation better from the outside or from the inside. My message down the chain of command as our people are getting to that decision point—or even before it—is to have the conversation. Have the conversation as to where the biggest impact can be to make our institution a better place.

In terms of a formal process, we are not there yet. I'm not sure if we have to be, other than having those really heart-to-heart conversations.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Just quickly, the SMRC showed a 29% increase from 2018-19 to 2019-20, in individuals who contacted them. Do you have an understanding of why there was such a substantial increase in those numbers?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, that's the end of your time.

We're going to Ms. Wong for five minutes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to both witnesses.

My question is for both of you.

Our military organization has a clearly defined authority hierarchy. Military members wear their rank visibly on their uniform. For both of you, would you agree that generally a subordinate member is expected to follow a request of a senior member even if the senior member is not directly in that subordinate's reporting structure?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, the military is founded on discipline. Given that we're the only organization in our society that is charged to apply deadly violence on behalf of the state, we absolutely have to have that discipline in place, so we expect subordinates to follow the orders of their superiors. However, this gets back to the question as to what is a proper order and what is the proper use of power. We have to get much better at ensuring that our leaders at all levels have a firm understanding of that.

I'll ask General Allen if she wants to pile in here for her perspective.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would concur with the CDS, in the sense that yes, absolutely, our rank structure requires that junior members listen to and obey the direction of senior members. However, as the CDS said, there is a context that is associated with that.

Certainly, in the execution of activities and operations that are under way, this type of a structure is quite critical to the execution of military operations in a safe and effective way. That being said, there needs to be a way in which individuals, if they are concerned they are being asked to engage or undertake an activity that they have concerns about, can go to their chain of command and identify concerns.

Again, it's finding this line between what is necessary for immediate, effective operations and an opportunity for individuals to reflect and consult on the best way forward in this. It's a bit of a knife's edge to walk along. However, I think we can create an environment in which this dichotomy between directly following rules and orders and being allowed to question and propose alternatives can coexist within the Canadian Forces.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

My next question is, if there's a relationship between a male of a higher rank and a woman of a lower rank, even if she's not directly in his chain of command, how would you determine if the relationship is consensual and not an abuse of authority?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, this would be a delicate question, given privacy and the like, but very necessary that the individual's chain of command asks some delicate but probing questions. Again, this comes down to understanding the power dynamics.

I'll ask General Allen whether she wants to jump in with a further clarification.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would even construct that question without the gender. If we were talking about a woman of a higher rank and a man of a lower rank, it is that power dynamic element that General Eyre spoke to that is the area we are trying to find, that we need to create that balance around and be quite careful about. In the hierarchical structure we have, there must not be an opportunity for an abuse of power or a perception of a requirement to concede to demands based upon rank.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now for our final round of questions, we go to Ms. Dhillon for five minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

My colleague, Ms. Vandenbeld, will be taking that spot. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Then we will have Ms. Vandenbeld for five minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much. It's nice to be subbing at this committee, which I participated in earlier in my parliamentary career. There's good work that this committee can do in terms of recommendations.

I also welcome and congratulate our two guests we have today. This is the first time General Eyre is appearing before this committee as the acting chief of the defence staff. I congratulate General Allen on her appointment as the first female vice-chief of the defence staff. Your careers have been incredible. You're incredibly qualified. These are incredibly meritorious. General Allen, in looking at your career history, you have served our country very nobly. I am very pleased to welcome both of you here.

I have a question for both of you, and would ask that you both respond. In the discussions, and when we're listening to survivors, we often hear there are policies and processes that we put in place that are very well intentioned. We've put a number of those in place since 2015, but sometimes they can have unintended consequences, so there's a need to constantly evolve and review.

I noticed, General Eyre, you mentioned the duty to report. We all struggle with the concept of bystanders and the obligations of bystanders. I also know that taking consent away from a person, taking agency and power from a person regarding where they want to go and whether they want to have an investigation.... Many people need to go through processes first. They need to start with counselling, peer support, discussing options, and then, once they get to the point of comfort, they may actually proceed with a formal complaint and an investigation. It doesn't always happen that somebody would jump right from zero to “I want to make a formal complaint”.

What are the processes in place that would give survivors and those impacted, who we know are men and women and non-binary, the opportunity to seek out for themselves what they need and what they want to have happen? How do they keep that agency and power over what the end result will be? If you could both please answer that, it would be great.

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

As we go forward with policy development, the lens we have to take is one from a victim's perspective. How do we make this better for the victim? The duty to report is one example. I'm sure there are other policies out there. Again, as we take stock of where we are, and which policies need to be looked at through that lens, at what point does it become a criminal investigation, if ever, and who conducts that investigation?

Currently, there is some optionality in terms of whether the investigation occurs through the military police, CFNIS, or through the civilian system? The victim has some say in that. As you speak to the commanding officer of CFNIS, perhaps he can expound on that.

Looking at the challenge, principally, through a victim's lens, is the way we need to go forward on this one.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I would add that it is very much that sensitivity to allowing people to have agency over how they wish to share that information, and what they want done with that information as it goes forward. That speaks to the benefit of the SMRC, and that it is separate from the Canadian Forces, where members can seek advice and support.

As Dr. Preston described to the committee before, part of the process is to always be ready to guide the member if working towards reporting is something they wish to do, to help them look at what their options are and how they might wish to go forward with that, and to help people forward.

Certainly, the SMRC fulfills a good role. There are probably more options, and you've seen that through the programs that Dr. Preston has been looking to put in place, which will allow people to even seek support outside of the SMRC itself, through civilian entities that may be nearby.

The point that was raised is absolutely correct. We have to keep thinking about those types of issues as we are developing our solutions base moving forward.