Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

One thing I have to do is.... It's my responsibility to provide the information to the appropriate authorities, and that's exactly what was done.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Minister, could you have advised the ombudsman, in your role as his only boss, to go to the SMRC?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I did advise the ombudsman to do that, Madam Chair. In fact, the ombudsman didn't ask me for advice, but I gave it, and the advice was it had to be told to the appropriate authorities.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Did you follow up on that, as he's responsible to you?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes, I absolutely followed up, Madam Chair. I followed up immediately with the Privy Council Office, and the very next day, the Privy Council contacted him for the information. The advice was given. Did you go to the military police? Did you provide the information to the appropriate authorities? More importantly, it was followed up the very next day so that action could be taken.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

This occurred in 2018, and at what point did you just wipe your hands of it? You said you had followed up; you said—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, that's the end of your time.

We'll have to go to Ms. Sahota now in the second round, for five minutes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Ray Novak, the chief of staff to Prime Minister Harper, testified that not only was it not political interference to ensure serious allegations were investigated and the results were reported back, but it was the responsibility of elected officials to do so. As Minister of National Defence, you are legally accountable for the direction and management of the Canadian Forces, including the chief of the defence staff, who reports directly to you. Why did you think it was not your responsibility to determine if General Vance was the best person to continue to lead Canada's military?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I'll actually pull out the quote from the former chief of staff to Prime Minister Harper. He stated, “The Prime Minister's Office is not an investigative body. Senior officials in the Privy Council Office are the ones responsible for interacting with the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces with respect to this matter.”

That's exactly what I did. I forwarded the information to the Privy Council Office.

He also stated that “political staff and ministers clearly aren't investigative entities in our system of government”. That's his quote, and then—

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

According to Ray Novak, the proper authorities were the NSA or the CFNIS. Did you ensure that an investigation was carried out by the NSA, the CFNIS or the RCMP?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I think the member is changing the words of what the former chief of staff stated. It says here that the senior officials in the Privy Council are the ones responsible for interacting with the Department of National Defence, so they make the decision as to where that information needs to go.

When the information is given to the appropriate authorities, they can then decide where it needs to go, whether it's the military police or the NSA. It is up to them to decide. In this way, it can be kept out of political—

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Minister, you're avoiding answering my questions.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Actually, I'm not. In fact, since we want to answer this question, why don't we also look at...? I've been asked the question: If their investigation had started, what action could have been taken? Clearly there was an investigation started in 2015, during the time that the previous chief of the defence staff was selected, so then why was a decision made at that time?

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I have another question, Minister. As the elected official responsible for ensuring that men and women can serve honourably and without fear in the military, can you guarantee that not one of them suffered in any way because General Vance remained in his position for three years after serious allegations were brought to you?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, we will do everything in our power to make sure that everyone in the Canadian Armed Forces has a safe work environment. This is something we're absolutely committed to, and we have a zero-tolerance policy, regardless of rank or position. Any [Technical difficulty—Editor] will always be investigated by the appropriate independent authorities. This is something that we are committed to and that we will always take very seriously.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Can the military be a professional and safe environment for all if senior officials and officers who have committed sexual assault, misconduct, harassment or other offences are not held accountable and are able to continue in their position of authority?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, we have to continue to work to make sure we allow everybody in the Canadian Armed Forces to have a safe, inclusive environment to work in, so that they can reach their true potential. This is something we're not going to stop. This is something we were committed to in 2015. We're continually putting in the work, whether it's Bill C-77, the declaration of victims rights, the changes we made in policy or the support we're providing for SMRC.

We also know we have a lot more work to do, and I look forward to the recommendations you provide, because it is all our responsibility to make sure the Canadian Armed Forces have that safe environment.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Minister, on what date did PCO inform you or your staff that they were unable to investigate the Vance allegations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I stated, we provided the information to the appropriate authorities so that it could be independently investigated. Obviously, with the current situation, we wish that things were different, but one thing I can assure you of is that we have to always follow the appropriate processes; if we don't, it undermines a just outcome when finally somebody comes forward. That's the sentiment we always need to be mindful of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you.

Now we're going to Ms. Hutchings for five minutes.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome to you, Minister, and a special welcome to your defence team here with you today.

Minister, we all agree that this is a terrible problem. I would like to talk about going forward. What does cultural change in the Canadian Armed Forces actually look like to you?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, this is one of the most important questions that we all need to answer.

To me, true culture change is, first of all, when every member—all Canadians, regardless of gender, skin colour or sexual orientation—can join the Canadian Armed Forces, proudly serve their country and, more importantly, reach their true potential and not be hindered in any way. Ultimately, this is not about the person who has joined. This is about the institution itself. Whatever gifts the individual brings, the Canadian Armed Forces will be far more operationally effective for it.

To achieve this, that's what we need to do. How we get there is something we have been aggressively working towards. The education that needs to be done is down at the lowest levels. When somebody joins, it is about making sure that, from the time of basic training to the unit they go to, they have that inclusive environment, and when there is something that happens, they have a place to go, to be able to be heard without retribution. That's what we continually need to work towards, but we know we have a lot more work to do on it.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for that, Minister.

Could you sum up quickly some short-term and long-term goals when it comes to the complete and total culture change in the Canadian Armed Forces for men and women and all gender-inclusive people?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The short-term goal is absolutely essential. We need to make sure that anybody who has any type of allegation is going to be heard and is going to be supported. It's going to be thoroughly investigated and dealt with quickly. Those are the things we're working on now. We were already looking at changes to independence from the chain of command and what that function would look like. Now we're going to be putting a lot more effort into that to make sure there's true independence.

The long-term goal is prevention. The long-term goal has to always be how we prevent these things from happening in the first place. Ultimately, that way, we don't need to be reactionary.

Culture change at the lowest level is going to be very important as we start recruiting more. Having more representation, having the policies in place, having independence when something does occur and having the complaint properly dealt with are all those things we need to take a look at.

Right now everything is on the table. We have a military justice review that's currently ongoing as well.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, I've heard you speak the last few weeks as this issue has come to the forefront. You have said repeatedly that all options are on the table when addressing the current situation that DND and CAF are facing. What exactly does that mean? For Canadians listening today, what exactly do you mean when you say that all options are on the table?