Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

There was a reference that the Canadian Armed Forces had already implemented two of them. Have you seen a change from that yet? Has that been noticeable?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, are we talking specifically about the Deschamps report?

Do you recall which two recommendations?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I don't have them in front of me. There was just a reference that two had already been implemented and that they had seen change amongst them. If you don't know, that's all right.

In terms of that restorative justice platform or in terms of the changes you're seeing, the minister mentioned that six out of 14 of the top key positions are now held by women. One of the things I'm concerned about is that while obviously it's incredibly important that women be equal in terms of that representation and that balance, it's also important that they're being given the support to hold those positions, and that they're not just placed as figureheads or as something that you can point to and say, “Here's an example of what we're doing. Isn't it great? Here are these women and here are their names.”

It's important that they're actually provided with the support required to help with that change and are not being held entirely responsible for fixing everything that has gone wrong. Could you talk about that and about your plans around supporting those positions?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

That is a very important question because whoever we select for leader positions, the first considerations are setting both the individual and the institution up for success. It's having the skills, the attributes and the experience to be able to be successful in that position.

I could tell you from my previous job as the army commander that we have an unprecedented number of women as commanding officers of combat arms units. This is very non-traditional, but they were selected not because they're women, but because they're good. As we take a look around the world today, a number of our missions are being commanded by these very same leaders, who are doing exceptional work.

One of the challenges we face is our system. How long does it take to get a general officer with 25 or 30 years of experience? It takes 25 or 30 years. We have a tremendous crop at the lieutenant-colonel commander level that is coming up through the system now. They will have the operational experience, the skills and the credibility to really lead this institution, but it's going to take some time.

In the meantime, every general officer we appoint is on my recommendation and is someone who I am absolutely confident has the skills, the attributes and the experience to succeed.

Thank you.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Of course, these conversations can't just be about women. They need to be about leadership for and support of LGBTQ service people. It needs to be in support of those who identify as transgendered.

What are your plans to ensure that people who identify in those groups are supported as well?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, that's another excellent question.

In my view, one of the fundamental roles of a leader at any level is to understand the personal circumstances of each and every one of their subordinates, treat them as individuals, cater to them, support them and give them the development they need to thrive in the organization. That same sort of attitude has to permeate its way down the ranks.

We have seen in our history far too many cases where leaders, for whatever reason, have been exclusionary and have not included everybody in the team. That absolutely has to change, because our success is predicated on teamwork. As the face of Canada changes, the faces of our teams are changing. If we can't embrace that sense of teamwork, we're not going to be able to succeed operationally going into the future.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We heard a great deal about the different forms of education that are taking place regularly, and the increase in that education that members of the armed forces have to go through to ensure they receive education on all forms—about those who are transgendered and understanding all those different sexual orientations, identities and even racial backgrounds. That's all included within that education as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's the end of your time.

We're going now to Ms. Alleslev in the second round, for five minutes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Would all reports of alleged sexual misconduct, disciplinary actions or any infractions in a military member's career be in his or her personnel file?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, that depends on the nature of the infraction. If it was criminal or a code of service discipline, it would be on the conduct sheet. If it was administrative in nature or remedial measures, generally they stay on the file.

That policy changed at a certain point. I can't remember the exact year, but generally they would remain on the personnel file, especially in terms of a recorded warning or a counselling and probation, two of our more significant remedial measures.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Perfect.

Testimony at the defence committee stated that there were no complaints, allegations, investigations or administrative actions in General Vance's personnel file or his conduct sheet when the CFNIS and the NSA investigated his behaviour as part of the vetting process to become CDS.

Is it possible for a conduct sheet or a personnel file to be tampered with?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, anything is possible. I have not seen the individual's personnel file, so I really don't have anything more to add on that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

What are the processes in place to audit and review personnel files and conduct sheets to ensure that they have not been tampered with and that they are, in fact, an accurate reflection of the military member's conduct?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I don't have that answer at my fingertips. I will take that question on notice.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Could you get us that process, the audit and the reports of the audits over the last three to five years? That would be great, thank you.

In the promotion process, are personnel files and conduct sheets reviewed, or are only the personnel evaluation reports, or PERs, reviewed?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, generally, as part of a promotion board, it is the member's file that includes personnel reports and course reports, and the conduct sheet is part of that.

Going forward, we are putting much more science into the selection of our senior leaders in terms of psychometric testing, emotional intelligence and modified 360-degree assessments to give subordinates a say in identifying potentially toxic behaviours in their leaders. We started this work last fall. It's going to rapidly progress. We're going to start at the most senior levels and then work down, but I'm quite excited about the work we're doing here to add more rigour to the selection of our leaders.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

You mentioned that all allegations need to be investigated, but what we have also heard is that there is an absolute reluctance to bring allegations forward formally, or even informally, but there is often information, or rumours, for want of a better term.

Would you consider it also a responsibility of senior members of the military to investigate? I don't mean in a formal investigation, but as part of their normal responsibilities as an officer, should they look into the conduct of their peers and their subordinates?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I believe it's incumbent. This is going to be a judgment issue depending on the nature of the rumour, but it's incumbent on us, if there is smoke, to do a check to make sure there is no fire behind it. Again, though, every case is going to be different.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

The Fifth Estate reported recently that senior officers interfered in sexual assault investigations and that information was lost and therefore other offences were downgraded or cut out, and many other angles from that.

How will you ensure that no investigation will be at risk of being compromised by senior officers in the chain of command interfering?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I can't speak to the veracity of those reports; however, given the independence of the Canadian Forces national investigation service and the independence of their investigators, if they believe that their investigation is being unduly interfered with, they have the absolute right to go to the Military Police Complaints Commission to lodge a complaint to that independent body.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, General Eyre and General Allen, for your service and also for your ideas and thoughtful comments about how to move forward.

My question, General Eyre—and I'll ask General Allen too—is this: We want to focus here on victims, on the survivors and on moving forward. Because you have been in the job only a few weeks, you referred earlier to looking at closure versus legal steps, and the challenges with that. You say you want to learn more.

What can we, as a committee, do to help you as to suggestions on how to gather that information? Can you expand a bit on that?

I'd like to hear General Allen, too, to see how you can expand to be listening more to the CAF members who are looking for closure.

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I find your committee reports of great use. That is one venue.

In terms of looking for ideas, we have to take them from where they may appear. You talked about finding a way for closure. One of the challenges, and I haven't mentioned this before, is the duty to report. That is part of the law we must follow, but at times it may prove to be an impediment for somebody coming forward. We have to take a close look at how we could change that, from perhaps a duty to report to a duty to respond, fully taking the victim's wishes into consideration.

We haven't cracked the nut on that one yet. We haven't cracked the code, but I think we need to take a very close look at that one going forward.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

General Allen, do you have anything to add?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.

As General Eyre identified, we have to take a look at those opportunities. We spoke about restorative engagement, which is going to be part of the Heyder and Beattie class action lawsuit, and what Bill C-77 will provide as part of that. However, we need to look also at the opportunity for people simply to speak outside the structured format of an administrative action or a disciplinary action, to share and have conversations and discuss how certain sets of circumstances either affect them directly or affect them as leaders within the organization. Then we can have a more robust conversation around the impacts of these types of activities, because that becomes the learning process. That becomes the discussion process in which we normalize conversations and differing perspectives on issues that take you down the avenue and down the road of cultural change.