Status of Women Committee on March 25th, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

How do you know if an investigation has been tampered with?

We've heard in the news, from the media, that some investigations have been tampered with by those who are perhaps complicit or wanting to get a different outcome. How would you know if an investigation has been tampered with?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

Thank you for the question.

For us, everything is compartmentalized within an investigation. What I mean by that is that the actual process of investigating stays within the unit, my unit, the CFNIS. Once we hit the point where we're ready to proceed with charges or not, if those charges happen to be through the military justice system, there may be some units involved of the subjects of the investigation.

I, as well as everybody here, am aware of the reports in the media. I can speak from experience that—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Are you saying that they are false?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

It would be inappropriate for me to contest somebody who is not here, but I can speak about my experience.

My experience has been that, when unit chains of command have heard of a victim coming forward, they are asking us for information about the file in front of them, generally with the best intent of supporting the victim. My unit has the unique position where we need to balance the right of the victim to have privacy with the right of a chain of command to know.

Generally speaking, if the unit has not been made aware, it's really the choice of the victim of an investigation to make that unit aware. We typically don't provide any information.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It is possible for an investigation to have been tampered with by people in the chain of command.

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

A chain of command can ask us questions but we don't provide them with information, so no.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

We also understand from media reports that some critical testimony and evidence have been lost in sexual misconduct and assault investigations, resulting in charges not being laid or the investigation being stopped.

Is that accurate?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

I read the same media report that you're referring to. While I don't want to speak to individual cases and where the issues are—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm not asking for specifics. I'm asking if it has ever occurred.

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

Absolutely.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you keep track, a record, of how many times that happens?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

How many times an error has occurred in an investigation?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes, and when critical evidence is lost, resulting in charges not being laid or whatever.

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

We have records, I guess, of complaints.

If there are complaints about a specific investigation, or generally investigations, there are processes in place. Internally, there's a professional standards organization that is charged with reviewing investigations that are ongoing. There's also the Military Police Complaints Commission, which is a quasi-judicial body—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Those are complaints. I'm talking about auditing and the loss of critical evidence and testimony.

Do you keep a record of how many times that happens? Is there a report that identifies how many times critical evidence and testimony have been lost?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

We have no specific report like that. We have a quality assurance process whereby senior members of the unit are charged with reviewing ongoing and concluded investigations for any error or any opportunities to really develop and get better.

However, no, there's nothing specific in one place that would identify all of those things.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Is it possible that, in some cases, the right outcome or the just outcome may have been compromised?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

In terms of an outcome at a judicial process, it's really beyond just the CFNIS. It's also any other police service that played a role in the collecting of evidence, and also the court's handling of its own evidence as well.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

In 2015, the previous government asked the CFNIS to investigate the possible allegations against General Vance, for his time both in Gagetown—a rumour about some occurrence—and an actual occurrence in Naples.

Can you tell us that, in both those instances, all the witnesses in those locations, officers who had been posted there at the time, were contacted as part of the investigation?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

Again, because this is speaking about a specific investigation, there are laws in place that prevent—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm not looking for names.

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

Absolutely.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm just looking to make sure that all of the potential witnesses were contacted as part of the investigation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry. That's your time.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.