Status of Women Committee on April 13th, 2021

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

A victim can file an anonymous complaint. They don't have to identify themselves.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

What flaws do you think exist in the sexual misconduct reporting process in the army when it comes to victims' efforts? Do you have any examples for us?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

You are talking about system flaws. For me, as chief of police, the important thing is to ensure that people trust the process and know how to provide information to the military police and refer a complaint.

I would like to take a moment to mention an aspect that is not always known. Victims can access a military police liaison officer through the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre. An officer with a great deal of investigation experience is permanently available through the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, or CFNIS.

Victims or complainants can remain anonymous. That officer explains to them the investigation process and helps them decide whether to go ahead or not and whether to file a complaint. If the individual is ready to submit a complaint to the police, the military police liaison officer coordinates the complaint, which is then sent to the CFNIS detachment in charge of the investigation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Brigadier-General.

You said, right off the bat, that your office is entirely independent, yet you do report to the vice-chief of the defence staff, who, of course, then reports to the chief of the defence staff.

What happens in a case where those are the accused? Who do you report to if they are the accused?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for the question.

If there's an allegation against the vice-chief of the defence staff or the CDS, then, being independent from the chain of command, the investigation takes place as it would for anybody else, regardless of rank or status.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You don't have an obligation to report at that point.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Being independent, I don't have an obligation to report.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

One of the things we heard in previous testimony from Stéphanie Raymond was that she tried to go forward with complaints on several occasions, but she didn't receive any information about her own case. In fact, she heard in the hallways her case being discussed by her commanding officer and by others involved, but not directly with her.

Can you explain why that would be the case, why that would happen?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Certainly, from my perspective, what I can speak to is that we have our own systems to protect information regarding a complaint referred to the military police, and access to that information or the investigative details is only allowed to members of the military police. It's important for us to protect that information for the integrity of the investigation and due process.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

How would her commanding officer have found out that information? I think you mentioned that you do report to commanding officers. Is that correct? You said you report to COs?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

No, I do not report personally to commanding officers.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

How would that commanding officer have known? How would they have found out?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

It depends sometimes on the complaint. If the reporting was done through the chain of command, then sometimes we receive complaints to the military police that were first disclosed to the chain of command and then referred to us. However, from the point the information enters into military police responsibility, we have our own systems to manage that information, and we protect that information to ensure the integrity of the investigation and due process.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'm concerned, because we've heard a great deal about the toxic culture that exists, the fear of reporting because ultimately there will be retribution. There will be some form of punishment or singling out, which will force a lot of these women, as we've seen, to eventually give up their entire careers.

You speak of all of this independence, this protection of complainants and this independence, but that actually isn't the case on the ground. How do you explain that?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Certainly my priority, from a police perspective, when a complaint is made is to offer victims support, to ensure the integrity of the investigation and then to ensure due process for all involved.

We have our own victim services program. As I indicated, we're staffing it with full-time civilian positions. We're going to work on standards and policies. We'll develop and get better at those, because we care about victim support and we know it's an important part of our process.

From a victim perspective, one of the roles of the victim services is to keep them informed of the investigation process and even court processes.

Also, when we look at our orders, we have proactively embedded in our orders the provisions of Bill C-77 and some of the elements of the Victims Bill of Rights. It's in our new orders for the victim services program. We have entered those obligations that come with Bill C-77 into our orders, from a proactive perspective. Those obligations are to keep victims informed of the process so that victims have a voice throughout the process and they understand each step of the process, from the time a complaint is lodged to the time of the court processes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

What I'm trying to understand, though, is how there is a significant disconnect between.... Having all of those processes in place and ensuring the independence of your office, your officers, those who investigate, obviously is key, yet that's not happening, or it hasn't happened in the past. We have many examples of that. If that is the case, how do you see going forward to better that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, but that's your time.

We're now going into our second round of questions, with five minutes for Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witness for being here today.

I'd like to continue on that, if I could. We've heard from the commander of CFNIS and now from you. If feels as though you want to leave us with the impression that everything is working as it should, that the system is effective and that those who perpetrate sexual assault, sexual misconduct or abuse of authority are independently investigated, charged and held accountable commensurate with the seriousness of the offence committed.

However, we have the allegations surrounding General Vance, Admiral McDonald and Admiral Edmundson, and the other victims who have come forth, which show us that there has been a pattern over a number of years that this may very well not be the case.

Can you confirm for us today that it's your position that everything is working exactly as it should, and there is no accountability on your part for anything since May 2018 that should have been done differently?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for the question.

I can't speak to the whole system in place, but I can speak to what I know, which is the military police group. You mentioned independence. I am functionally independent from the chain of command. When we receive information and we investigate, we investigate independently from the chain of command. I do not report details of active investigations to anyone, in my role as provost marshal, that are related to policing duty and functions.

We've made some changes in the process. We made changes to our victim services program with the creation of the SORT, those teams. That's one example, as a direct result of the Deschamps report, to increase capability, knowledge and expertise in investigating sexual criminal offences. We are a learning organization, and we've made some changes to policies and programs, but from an independence perspective, I can assure you that our investigations are conducted independently.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Your recommendation to this committee is that no changes, no accountability and no structural review of any kind with respect to the provost marshal and the police forces of the Canadian Forces needs to occur, because everything is working exactly the way it should, and we don't need to address it in any way.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

I've had an opportunity to discuss this with Justice Fish a few weeks ago, who is conducting an independent review of the National Defence Act, and I've shared with him some perspectives to reinforce the MP independence in the legislative framework. I'm looking forward to his recommendations in his important work in reviewing the National Defence Act.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

This committee doesn't need to make any recommendations because another body is doing so.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

No, what I'm saying is that Justice Fish was doing a review of the National Defence Act and aspects of military policing and the legislative framework pertaining to the Canadian Forces provost marshal, and I've shared some perspectives with him on how the legislative framework reinforces MP independence.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

If we could go back to investigating the chief of the defence staff, let's say someone brings a rumour to you or to your organization. Please walk us through the process of how you would address that allegation, without a complaint—a rumour, a possibility of wrongdoing.