Status of Women Committee on April 13th, 2021

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for the question.

First of all, we would receive the allegation to the complaint. You say it pertains to the chief of the defence staff?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

That allegation would be referred to.... If it is referred to me or the CFNIS, then an assessment of the allegation would be made, and then, if the allegation or the information meets the threshold, an investigation would be launched.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

And then—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's the end of your time.

Now we're going to Ms. Sidhu for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, General.

I hope the testimony we hear in this committee will guide us and the government as it works to reform the armed forces response to reports of assault.

General, your office began a review of cases that were initially deemed unfounded. What are some of the important recommendations that have been highlighted by the external review team so far?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

I don't have in front of me the specific recommendation, but broadly the recommendation was on some policies and on some training also for the investigators. However, it certainly validated some of the things we're doing, like trauma-informed care. That was important. There were also a few recommendations that were more on what to train on and what to look for in some of the cases. Then those recommendations were made to the CO of CFNIS. They were referred to him, and he would certainly consider those and implement them.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

As a follow-up, General, can you clarify what type of training is given to the officers so that they are able to appropriately handle reports of sexual assault and survivors of this trauma?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

When CFNIS members come into the unit, they go through a one-year internship program. They take some foundational training that every CFNIS member takes. They do an MP investigator course that lasts about six weeks at the academy. Then there are various sexual investigation courses and interviewing techniques.

This year what the commanding officer started to do in his indoctrination week is provide all the new NIS investigators with some training on trauma-informed interviewing, with the intent of rolling it out to all the NIS investigators. We see value in that training.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

In addition to having representatives from the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces, the external review team also includes a survivor advocate and a victim services representative from the sexual misconduct response centre. What are some of the benefits of having victim advocacy experts on the review team? What feedback have they provided?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

I don't have the specific feedback, but from my perspective it was highly valuable. The NIS welcomed the comments. The victim advocates also help us understand things from a victim's perspective. They certainly provide an understanding of how a victim feels and some of the needs of a victim. They certainly also help with trauma-informed interviewing and how to interview victims from a trauma perspective.

Certainly, as we move the victim services program forward with a new coordinator and manager, who has been hired and will start next week, I certainly would look at consulting externally with SMRC or other organizations to really integrate best practices into our program.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

How do agencies under your supervision collaborate with the sexual misconduct response centre?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

As I explained earlier, we have an MP liaison officer embedded with SMRC, so there is a link there. We've certainly exchanged best practices with them and we are in regular contact with SMRC.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

General, do you have any other recommendations that you want to give this committee?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

For me, I guess a recommendation for the committee would be to better explain the role of the military police to the defence community and to communicate more about what we do and our independence in order to break down barriers to reporting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Provost Marshal, thank you very much for joining us today. You are saying that there are very limited problems. In fact, you are saying that there aren't really any problems and that your department can respond to and immediately follow up on all complaints. That is my understanding of your comments.

So where do you think the problem lies?

For instance, in the Vance case, had the victim come to see you, would the proceedings have been successful?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for your question.

Anyone can submit a complaint to the military police. As I previously explained, we are independent from the chain of command. We would have evaluated the complaint and decided to launch an investigation.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Earlier, you talked about coding problems, especially in terms of cases deemed unfounded.

What proportion of sexual misconduct complaints result in a guilty verdict?

Is the number low? If so, what explains that? What obstacles are behind most complaints not leading to a guilty verdict?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

I would like to clarify something about the coding I talked about earlier. It applies to offences, not necessarily to the result of judicial processes.

As a police service, we investigate, we evaluate the facts and the evidence, and we lay charges. The outcomes of judicial processes are not my purview. The reasons a prosecutor would reach a verdict of not guilty or a decision of the court would go in that direction are out of my area of expertise.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The threshold of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm so sorry. That's the end of your time.

Now we're going to Ms. Mathyssen for two and half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much.

You said that there are issues with the system of course, and you want to make better the ease of reporting for women, for them to know the system better, that there is that independence, that they have those options.

Again, because we heard it so recently and it was so powerful, I want to return to the testimony of Ms. Raymond here in this committee. She said the only reason she was able to get proper justice was by going outside the military.

If that's the case, are there ways you can help better facilitate victims to go that route?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

A victim can make a complaint to any police service: civilian police or military police. At that point, if it's made to the civilian police, then they would go through the same process that we do to establish jurisdiction and who would investigate.

However, a victim can make a complaint to any police service that they wish.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Are there cases where you would advocate for that or involve yourself in that way? If they've gone to you first, would you advocate for them to follow another path?