Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Major Brennan, just to get back to my earlier question regarding gender-based violence, is it the case that there's not a lot of sexual misconduct training in the early stages of any CAF career?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

There's not specific misconduct training, no. That is missing. We could have discussions regarding prevention and enlightening new recruits to what it could be like and how to protect themselves. That would definitely help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you

Ms. Larouche, you now have the floor for the next six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our two witnesses, Ms. Brennan and Ms. Whitecross.

It was very enlightening to hear you talk about your respective experiences, which, as you said, are very different, in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I'd like to start with Ms. Whitecross.

In your opening remarks, you said that you heard shocking things in the testimonies over the past few weeks. I'd like to know which things were particularly shocking to you.

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I have been paying attention to the committee proceedings for the last couple of weeks and I was absolutely dismayed.... That is not a good word; I was almost sick to my stomach on the testimony I heard Tuesday evening of some current and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

The situation that has happened since February in terms of our very senior leadership of the Canadian Armed Forces and the allegations against them have all been a complete surprise to me, and very, very disappointing.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

So you didn't know about all this.

Do you believe that there's a form of omerta or code of silence in the Canadian Armed Forces with respect to sexual misconduct? In your opinion, what accounts for this silence?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I am certainly not surprised that sexual misconduct exists. As the committee is probably aware, I led the strategic response team on sexual misconduct after the Deschamps report in 2016. Honestly, I had the honour to meet with thousands of Canadian Armed Forces men and women across the country to discuss this behaviour and to discuss the value system that the Canadian Armed Forces upholds and expects of every single member of the Canadian Armed Forces. In so doing, I had been privy to many disclosures that were heartbreaking. Many of them were old, granted, but some of them were not. That was really a watershed moment for me. I may not have personally experienced such behaviour throughout my career, but to listen to people that have was literally gut-wrenching, to say the least.

Yes, I'm surprised what's happened in the last couple of months, but am I surprised that this behaviour exists? No, I am not. That's why I am pleased we can hopefully continue with the dialogue and get some tangible measures to get us back on the right track right away.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Brennan, you testified about your assault and you spoke a great deal about a power dynamic issue. You also spoke about being under a great deal of pressure and receiving many threats. Do military members face any other barriers when it comes to reporting sexual misconduct by a superior?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Thank you for your question.

In terms of the abuse of power and threats against women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces, there's a boys club culture. To bring up a misconduct issue and have it heard, you have to go through the chain of command. Women stop talking because they're worried about the impact on their careers, their workplaces and their colleagues. They don't feel protected and they don't feel comfortable going to their superior because that person is their boss.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

This constitutes one of the flaws in the process for reporting sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I imagine that there are others. You spoke about the intense questioning that you endured for two days.

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

The reports are made to the military police. This isn't the ideal setting for a woman to speak about the matter for the first time. It's difficult to speak about the matter. The victims aren't accompanied by a resource person who could be there for them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Brennan, I don't know if there's anyone streaming data at your house, but the Internet connection we have is spotty, so if you can get them to stop streaming, that would be great, if there is anybody doing that.

Meanwhile, we're going to go next to Ms. Mathyssen.

I forgot to say this to the folks at the beginning, but thank you again for your respectful tones in this sensitive subject.

You have six minutes, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I truly appreciate the witnesses who have come forward who spoke about the honour it is to be here, but it truly, I believe, is our honour to speak with you today and to hear what you have to add to this difficult subject.

Major Brennan, you mentioned the two days that you were interviewed, the six hours. One of the things that we heard before was that often it's intimidating and that women who come forward aren't provided with other women interviewers.

Were you provided that opportunity, or did you ask for it?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Madam Chair, I think that I was only interviewed by male resources, and when I noted this to them, it felt like I had to drag back up 25 years ago when I was a police officer and think about what I should be telling them as mentoring them, because I had to mention many, many things to them during the process.

It was not fair. For a person who didn't know the process, I think it would have been harder on them [Technical difficulty—Editor]

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

They didn't provide you with that opportunity. They didn't say they would find someone, a woman, to work with you in this situation; they just ignored that. Is that correct?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

No. They mentioned that their many years of service meant they were very capable of doing it.

When stated that the resource was going to be a male to provide me support, I noted to them clearly that had they named the other person behind the desk—they were pointing at something—who was a female, I would be welcoming to that, but I was not going to enjoy having to explain myself to another male.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I've heard that oftentimes, even for just regular discipline and the consequences within everyday activities, women are challenged harder and are punished more and that even if they hold rank, it is constantly challenged.

Would you agree to those statements in terms of your personal experience?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

In my personal experience, no matter what rank you hold, it's never equal to.... In my profession and in my personal experience, I didn't ever hold as high a rank as any male counterpart, whether it was that they don't salute me or didn't respect it if I had something to say. I lived that daily.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of the supports around you—the senior leaders and your senior leadership—did you ever receive any support in response to that lack of respect shown to you?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I would have welcomed a mentor to teach me how to be a strong woman in the military. Unfortunately, there really aren't that many women who outrank or who've made it up to general, even in the infantry. I think that is to come.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I would say that you are a strong Canadian Armed Forces woman.

Lieutenant-General Whitecross, you were the commander of the strategic response team of Operation Honour, which has now concluded. There have been a lot of comments about its successes or failures, and ultimately failures. What do you think can be learned from that, moving forward, as the CAF restructures and tries to go forward after Operation Honour?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

Madam Chair, I wouldn't necessarily say it was a complete failure. Back in 2015 when we did Operation Honour, we certainly don't know what we'd do today and we don't understand.... I think we underestimated the amount of effort, the amount of work and the actual detailed work that's required to change a culture. In hindsight, it probably would have been of tremendous benefit if had we brought in some organizational culture experts to help us frame that.

Some of the work that had been done, whether it's the policies or some of the training.... We had mentioned some of the training. Perhaps Major Brennan wasn't aware of it, but we have instituted training at all rank levels. It has been fairly recent, granted, so that means there's a lot of work to be done. It's not just individual training; it's senior leader training and professional military education. It's bystander training and a whole bunch of other things.

Having put that aside, yes, we can't throw away all of the foundational work of Operation Honour. We have to build on it. What we really need to do, in my humble opinion, is bring in some external experts to really help shape where the next phases are going.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to our second round of questioning.

Ms. Alleslev, you have five minutes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Major Brennan, in your last comments you said that General Vance considered himself untouchable. Could you give us an idea of what he meant by that? Did that include, say, Minister of National Defence Harjit Sajjan?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Madam Chair, I can only speak from what I know. When I worked at Downsview in Toronto with Minister Sajjan, who was then Major Sajjan, we both worked for General Vance. There was a different dynamic.

Afterwards, General Vance always told me that he always had him under control. Those were comments to me personally. I can't discuss their working relationship because I was not privy to it.