Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Kin Choi]

In my professional opinion, and looking at the various cases and through legal counsel, the deputy minister, to the best of my knowledge, has not broken any laws.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Choi.

General Whelan, given that education, training, health services, recovery, rehabilitation and reintegration, and operational trauma stress support centres, just to name a few, fall under your purview, can you please discuss the current gaps and the steps you are taking to address them?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

That exercise is ongoing right now, so at least in military personnel command, we're looking at all the systemic and institutional frameworks that provide the support to people across the Canadian Forces, with a view to looking at where the strengths are and the gaps at the same time, so that we can reinforce where we are strong and address where we are weak.

We are looking at a number of areas. I can speak to two off the top of my head.

Notwithstanding the great work they are doing for Canadians across this country, when health services are not doing that, they're trying to work on how to rebuild and modernize Canadian Forces health services for the future, which is a monumental task. We know how difficult health care is in this country.

Then I would probably speak to the transition group, which was stood up as an entity in December 2018 to look after our ill and injured, but they are now assuming more and more responsibility for not just ill and injured. Over the next four years they will be taking on the release and the support and transition functions for all members of the Canadian Forces. It's a work in progress.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Some witnesses who have appeared at this committee have said that when it comes to sexual misconduct, survivors have experienced many negative effects on their mental health and physical well-being. What have you done to ensure that Canadian Armed Forces members have access to trauma-informed services?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

That's a very timely question, Madam Chair.

We are in discussions, at this point, on assessing how we can better serve victims who suffer sexual misconduct arising from service. Those conversations are maturing. I have great confidence in our health services enterprise. By default, their job is to determine a program of care for whatever the injury might be.

I'm confident we have the mechanisms to address their concerns and injuries, but we are in conversations and discussions to see what more we can do to provide support to victims of sexual trauma.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

There is now data available regarding Canadian Armed Forces members reporting sexual misconduct. How will you use this data going forward, as changes are implemented?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

If I recall—and I don't have the stats top of mind—one of the statistics speaks to sexual assault during basic training. Everyone has a right to feel safe during basic training or any training. We owe that to those who serve their country. We need to look at that.

I had a discussion today to prepare myself. I spoke to the CO of the actual recruit school and of the two military colleges, and I have some of their notes here.

It starts with leaders across the Canadian Armed Forces having zero tolerance for it. We have to ensure that leaders enforce the message, that they live and lead the behaviours we want from troops, whether they are wearing their uniform or not. We need to make sure that the leaders, the trainers and the students actually have a better understanding of sexual assault.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you. Your time is up.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Whelan and Mr. Choi, I don't know whether you'll be able to answer my question, but can you elaborate on the consequences for a military member who has been convicted of sexual assault by the military tribunal?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

I regret that I can't answer that question with certainty. That is a question for the Judge Advocate General. It's a legal question, and it's probably very situationally dependent. I wish I could give you more than that.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

How about you, Mr. Choi?

[Kin Choi]

My answer would be very similar to Major-General Whelan's. It's not an area of my expertise. I believe the Judge Advocate General would be better placed to answer that question.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In your opinion, what issues should the committee address in this study? What changes should be made to address the issue?

Can you describe to the committee the sexual assault issue and outline what you think must be changed?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

Where things need to change is in people's understanding. Their knowledge and their education and how well they are able to understand the topic need to change.

Previously I was making reference to ensuring that leaders, trainers and students actually understand what sexual assault actually is. I'm not sure that people do understand that. That is probably one of the first starting points.

The other thing is that we need more data and more research. We do have the mechanisms in the Canadian Armed Forces to seek out the data and the understanding and the academic aspect, but we would certainly welcome outside advice to be able to move that particular agenda forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Several of the witnesses in our past meetings drew our attention to the fact that a lot of the supports aren't available to them due to language, their location or their posting. One woman was on a ship, where there are limited resources and personnel, of course, but some of the witnesses also specifically spoke about the need for adequate child care and the huge barrier they face because it isn't provided to military personnel.

Could you both address what you're actively doing to ensure that women in the armed forces equally can serve by being provided those services they need, and child care specifically?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

I agree with you. We are very well aware that child care is a contributing element to women serving in the Canadian Forces. In fact, 34% of women have indicated that child care is one of the elements. It's not the only element, but it's one of them, and it's near the top.

We have recently undertaken some work to figure out what it would take to be able to deliver a child care capability in the Canadian Armed Forces. That work is ongoing; I don't think it's mature enough to be able to present at this stage, but we are looking at it.

I think the advantage here—if there is anything, if there is a silver lining—is that COVID has acutely pointed out the challenges that women face in a pandemic environment. What we are trying to do is leverage those lessons in order to help establish some of those capabilities for our members in service who need them—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Sorry, but just before you get to that, would it be fair to ask if, once you actually get to a mature place of being able to report that, you could send that data and that information to our committee?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

It won't be up to me to determine what the mature level of it is, but we'll certainly take that on notice and we'll provide that if we can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

Now we'll go to Ms. Sahota, who is splitting her time with Ms. Shin.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Major-General, it seems like the big boys at the top are circling their wagons and trying to protect each other, so I'm going to ask you this. In order to address the sexual misconduct culture that exists in the military and that we've seen can exist as low as the Royal Military College all the way up to the chief of the defence staff, do you believe that we should be addressing this from our most senior level and making our way down, or should we try something at the entrance level and allow the senior leadership to go unchallenged?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

That's a great question, Madam Chair.

I'll give you the infantry officer answer: We need to attack all levels at once.

However, at some point, as I think I said earlier, the beginning of a career is important, and we need to grow good people—good leaders, good followers—from the get-go. That certainly doesn't take our eyes off serving leaders who still need that professional development and still need that accountability. One of the things we are hearing from our members in our listening sessions is that they want leader accountability.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Then leaders need to take the responsibility?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

Absolutely.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Go ahead, Nelly.