Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2021

[Brigadier-General Simon Trudeau, Canadian Forces Provost Marshal and Commander Canadian Forces Military Police Group, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon. I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to return here today to answer your questions and offer some reflections I have had and the action I have taken as the provost marshal since I last appeared.

The work of this committee has given a voice to people who want to be heard, and I appreciate that this will foster positive changes. I want all members to know that I've been watching and listening to the testimony from these hearings. Like so many other people, I've been deeply affected and impacted by what I've heard from witnesses and from people who have come forward.

It is clear from some of the testimonies that we can improve our interactions with victims. While we have taken measures in the past, from training to launching the sexual assault review program in 2018, I think we can do better in supporting victims who entrust us with their desire to pursue criminal investigations in preparing them for this process.

As I explained during my last appearance, my role as provost marshal is to ensure an effective police force and that there is trust in the system: trust that we will listen; trust that we will thoroughly investigate, independently from the military chain of command; and trust that we will act when necessary. This is a serious moment for the Canadian Armed Forces, for the military police and for the military justice system. Trust needs to be rebuilt.

This moment requires immediate action. I would like to tell you about some of the principal initiatives I have taken in response to what I've heard at this committee. I welcome your thoughts and views on these actions.

The first is training. To build on the valuable trauma-informed approach training adopted by the Canadian Forces national investigation service sexual offence response teams, I have directed my team to take the necessary measures to incorporate this training into our foundational police forces at the Canadian Forces Military Police Academy and to develop an action plan to provide this training to all MP personnel as soon as possible. This will ensure that all front-line MPs recognize the importance of their role and the potential impact they can have when interacting with a victim of sexual trauma.

The second is on a victim-centric approach. Victim support is at the forefront of what we do as a police service. To that end, and with a focus on learning and improving, I have sought the assistance and advice from Dr. Denise Preston, the executive director of the sexual misconduct response centre, on two issues.

First, we are working towards the professionalization of our victim services through the hiring of civilian personnel with relevant credentials and experience. We are doing this with the assistance of the SMRC, which will continue to work with us and the staff we hire to support consistent training and professional development.

Second, I'm very eager to personally engage with and listen to victims of sexual misconduct and other crimes. In this way, as provost marshal, I can better understand the challenges that individuals face during the entire investigative process and how we can improve the human side of interacting with victims. Dr. Preston has kindly offered her expertise, and we are exploring consultation options and related considerations as we speak.

I will also be consulting and collaborating with Lieutenant-General Jennie Carignan in her new role as chief, professional conduct and culture, to help ensure that we are actively engaging outside experts to provide feedback on our operations.

I welcome all of your thoughts and views on these actions and any questions you may have today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

We now turn to Major-General Chapdelaine.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Major-General Guy Chapdelaine, Canadian Armed Forces Chaplain General, Department of National Defence]

Good day, Madam Chair.

I am Major-General Guy Chapdelaine. Since 2015, I have served as the Canadian Armed Forces chaplain general.

The mission of the Royal Canadian chaplain service is to develop and offer spiritual and religious care and support in order to ensure the spiritual well-being and resilience of all members of the defence community and Canadian Armed Forces families while respecting the freedom of conscience and religion of each person.

My role as the Canadian Armed Forces chaplain general is to oversee chaplain recruiting and training and to set direction and guidance for the provision of religious and spiritual care in accordance with Canada's defence strategy and the initiatives of the Canadian Armed Forces total health and wellness strategy. In addition to leading the chaplaincy, I advise the chief of the defence staff on religious, spiritual and moral issues affecting defence team members and Canadian Armed Forces members' families.

Chaplains have privileged access to Canadian Armed Forces members of all ranks, having no command authority while ensuring that privacy and confidentiality are respected. Chaplains provide an active and supportive presence and offer spiritual and personal growth counselling, a variety of programs, and special events throughout the year across Canada and the globe.

The Royal Canadian Chaplain Service has undergone many important changes in recent years, notably to ensure and promote diversity among its ranks, including representation of women and a variety of spiritual beliefs.

The Royal Canadian Chaplain Service is comprised of 261 Regular Force chaplains, and 125 Primary Reserve chaplains. Chaplains serve in all elements of the Canadian Armed Forces both domestically and abroad. Eighteen per cent of regular force chaplains are women, and 16% of Primary Reserve chaplains are women. Currently, within our subsidized education program, which is part of chaplain recruiting, 30% of candidates are women.

Until 1995, there were two chaplaincy services: one Protestant and one Roman Catholic. In 2003 we welcomed our first Muslim chaplain. Today we are a multi-faith chaplaincy, representing many different traditions: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Buddhist, and soon, Humanist. We understand that we must continue to build upon this progress, creating a safe work environment for female chaplains, as well as ensuring that the CAF members we serve receive tailored support.

I am pleased to be in your midst to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

We'll begin our questions with Ms. Sahota for six minutes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

General, the last time you were here, you said the following:

It was clear in 2011, when the CDS amended the command and control structure of the military police and adjusted the authorities, responsibilities and accountabilities of the provost marshal. They were pretty explicit in regard to the CFPM having full command over all MPs involved in policing duties and functions. Also, as the head of the military police, the position of CFPM is independent of the chain of command.

Do you still stand by that statement?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

Yes, I do.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

You also touched on how you've been watching and listening to the witnesses coming forward and telling their stories. Recently we had a witness before this committee and she had asked if the CFNIS had the mandate to investigate and the powers to lay charges against the CDS. They had refused to answer, and the CDS at the time had said that he was untouchable because he owned the CFNIS.

Given your previous statement and your recent testimony, can you shed some light on why the CDS would believe that he could direct what the CFNIS could and couldn't investigate?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

I can't speculate about what the CDS said, and it's also part of an ongoing investigation. However, what I can tell you is that functionally I am independent of the chain of command and have full command of the military police involved in policing. We will investigate any allegation regardless of rank or status. We'll analyze the facts, look at the evidence and lay charges as required.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I'm not asking you to speculate. The witness said the CDS said, at the time, that he was “untouchable” because he owned the CFNIS, and your statement and testimony are different from that.

Why would somebody believe that? Why would the CDS believe he was untouchable because he owned the CFNIS?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

I can't speculate on his frame of mind when he said that, but what I can tell you is that for policing I'm independent from the chain of command.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

In your last committee appearance, you gave the impression that there wasn't really a problem. However, just the other day, Global News reporters Mercedes Stephenson, Marc-André Cossette and Amanda Connolly published a rather disturbing article which said that the military police had a Facebook group where they were openly mocking a woman who appeared before this committee. They left statements such as “Giggity”, a reference to a character in the adult show Family Guy who is a misogynist, and “Her story is about as clear as a PMQ orgy party on pay day.” That witness expressed that she doesn't believe she will receive justice, and after reading the Facebook group comments, it is easy to see why one would believe that.

General, this occurred under your watch and reinforces the toxic masculinity within the military. It explains why women in general don't feel safe in coming forward, and plays a big role in the reason the military is struggling to meet its 25% women diversity quota.

Do you still believe there isn't a problem, yes or no?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

With regard to the article about the private Facebook page, as the provost marshal, I was deeply disappointed when I became aware of that article and the comments. Certainly I expect every military police member to be professional at all times on and off duty and to respect the military police professional code of conduct.

I take these matters of conduct very seriously, and I've referred them to the professional standards section, which will keep serving MPs by looking into the article and will keep people accountable as required.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

From what I hear, you're disturbed that this happened, but how are the steps you have taken going to make sure that this doesn't happen again? We're talking about bringing change to the culture that exists currently, and just being disappointed doesn't cut it anymore. Witnesses are coming forward and they're being put down, and it's public knowledge now.

What concrete steps are you going to take? This is happening under your watch.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Regarding a concrete action that I've taken, I've referred the matter for an investigation into the serving MPs who made comments on that private Facebook page. I have also reminded my commanders of the responsibilities that we have under the code of conduct. Any allegations of misconduct against MPs will be actioned with due process as part of the processes that I have at my disposal.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I'll let Leona ask the rest of the questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Actually, you're out of time.

We're going to Ms. Dhillon for six minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here this morning.

My questions will be for General Trudeau.

Thank you for coming again to committee. I've noticed that your tone, I have to say, is more forceful about addressing these issues. Thank you for that. I hear the passion in your voice, as much as a military person can display it.

Over the past few months, survivors have been coming forward—you've been watching their testimony and continue to do so—with their experiences of sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. These stories are heartbreaking and overwhelming, but they are crucial for our government to make the path forward and completely change the culture of the Canadian Armed Forces.

What steps have you taken to ensure that the military police are adapting and evolving to better meet the needs of survivors?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, certainly, in watching and listening to the testimony—because we are listening and learning as a professional police service—I personally have been moved by the testimony, because in those cases, the victims.... We fell short of meeting their needs as victims. That also moved me to action. There are a number of actions, as I alluded to in my opening comments, such as making sure now that all MPs will receive the trauma-informed approach training. I've reached out to Dr. Preston to accelerate the professionalization of my victim services.

We absolutely have to meet the victim's needs. In the interaction with police, the first contact that a victim will have with the police will be very crucial in confidence in the process. I really want to focus my energy now on how we interact with victims, how we prepare victims for the investigative process and how we give victims a voice into options when they report, but I really want to make sure that it's seamless from the perspective of how we interact with victims and making them safe and secure.

It's the same at a tactical level, from a patrol officer to an investigator of the CFNIS, depending on where the victim reports the allegation, which is more often at the patrol level, where the first responder will arrive on the scene or the victim will report to a patrol office. I want to bridge the gap in training, skill sets and knowledge that has been gained by the NIS over the years. I want to do a transfer of that skill set knowledge and training to the patrol section to ensure a consistent approach to how we interact with victims.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you so much, General Trudeau.

I think that's an amazing approach. You mentioned that the first place where a person decides to disclose is to the patrolling officer. This is most crucial, because it could encourage a person, or it could discourage somebody from speaking up, abandoning the process altogether. This is very important what you just said: that we have to first look at the patrolling officer, the very first place where disclosure will happen.

The last time you were at committee, you spoke of a threshold of investigation. Can you please clarify what you meant by the threshold of investigation? What examples can you give us that meet or do not meet the threshold?

Thank you.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, I think that last time I was referring to the threshold of an investigation, either from the uniformed military police or the CFNIS. When we talk about sexual misconduct, any sexual criminal offence or Criminal Code of Canada offence must be referred to the CFNIS, which is mandated to do that. Actually, that change in policy was done I believe in 2015 as a result of Madam Deschamps' report. The CFNIS became the sole referral authority for sexual criminal offences.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

In your opinion, why is the use of a threshold necessary?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

It's just to categorize the different types of investigations that will be referred to the CFNIS and those that will stay with the uniformed military police. It's a little bit like the civilian police, where some offences are referred to the major crimes unit and some stay at the patrol section.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Okay. Perfect. It's a sort of triage of the files.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

That is right.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

All right.

When you spoke during your testimony, you used a word that I found very interesting and very crucial to this whole process. You spoke about the “human” aspect and how you're working also with your colleague, Lieutenant-General Carignan. Can you talk to us a bit about the human aspect and how you think that will make things a bit different or a lot more different when it comes to reporting and addressing sexual violence or harassment in the Canadian Armed Forces?

In case our time runs out, I want to say thank you very much for the work you're doing and your new innovative solutions. I encourage you to keep doing this.