Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2021

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Is the person informed of all the details of the ongoing investigation?

Some victims talked about how Mr. Vance felt he was untouchable. They also spoke of the consequences they had suffered.

I would like to return to the importance of this independence and the anonymity of the victims, who felt unprotected far too often.

You say you will make recommendations based on the testimony of victims who have appeared before the Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

I would like you to talk more about anonymity, which is an important issue to better protect victims, restore their confidence, and encourage them to report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Trudeau, you spoke about the training and your commitment to that training. Do you see this as something that would be yearly or a few times per year? What plans do you have in place?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, I think this is an important question.

It can't be one-time training. It has to be ongoing and enduring.

I've been reflecting a lot in the last few weeks and I'm starting to have a strategy in my head. I think we're going to need to develop a victim support strategy that will have a number of building blocks in it, including leadership, the ongoing commitment of MPs' senior leadership into the importance of victim support. We're going to have to have a building block that is an internal-external partnership with stakeholders to help us improve training and continuously meet the needs of the victims.

We're going to need training at all levels of the military police at different stages of their careers: annual refreshers, foundational courses, and also, most importantly, performance monitoring on how we do to inform and how we can do well. There are so many things that we do, but I think an enduring strategy would help us better meet the victims' needs and make sure that training is enduring within the military police and stays as a priority.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

General Chapdelaine, we talked a lot today about broken trust. You talked a lot about how incredibly important that relationship of trust is with the people you speak with. Going forward, do you believe the armed forces are moving in the right way to regain that trust? What positive steps, what recommendations do you have on that alone?

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

Madam Chair, on the importance of trust, we have to regain trust. I think we have lost some trust right now in the Canadian Armed Forces. It's like a storm. We are passing through a storm. We need to regain this trust. Starting from the soldier to the general, nobody should be above. There should be the same standards for everybody.

This trust, as I mentioned, is very important. We are dealing with a very difficult situation right now with the duty to report. I would like to see a duty to respond, which will be much more appropriate, especially for us, for chaplains and health care providers also. We cannot have this duty to report and not respect the confidentiality, because we retraumatize the victims. I think it's important that we are faithful to this trust we have with the person coming forward. It's very difficult for this person to come forward, and it's important to respect this confidentiality.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I think we have time for a brief question each. Ms. Shin, we'll start with you, and then I think it will be Ms. Vandenbeld, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh, Monsieur Serré, okay.

Let's go to Ms. Shin first.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In our first panel, Lieutenant-General Carignan stated that training is not achieving the aim of reducing misconduct in any way. This is a serious assertion, and we should all be alarmed. Dr. West expressed that RMC is a breeding ground, unfortunately, of toxic culture that permeates the forces. It is where the majority of our officers are indoctrinated into the military.

Throughout the committee meetings, I can't help but conclude the reality is it doesn't matter what institutional changes happen or what systems are set in place, if the change doesn't happen internally within the individuals' minds and hearts, change is superficial and only an optic to satisfy a regulatory mandate, so there must be personal accountability.

Major-General Chapdelaine, your chaplaincy permits you to help members probe the deepest parts of their heart. Based on your experience or the experience of other chaplains, of the members who come for care, without breaching confidentiality, have men who have committed sexual assault or misconduct ever come to you for help? If so, what kind of help were they looking for? What personal counselling is available for men in the CAF? Is the support used? Are the men who receive allegations or complaints recommended to receive counselling services?

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

Madam Chair, that's a good question. It's important because as chaplains, we welcome any person. It could be the victim, but it could also be the perpetrator. They can come forward and ask for help; it's possible. That's why it is so important to be.... Of course, the same person cannot do both sides, but we can provide support to any people who come forward.

We are not alone. We are working together. We are working with the police and with the SMRC. Dr. Preston and I have bilateral meetings regularly that look into the training of the chaplains, because it's important. We cannot say that the chaplains are trained and it's over. We need to make sure they have the trauma training and that they are up to date so they know of all the supports and can provide support to the perpetrators of the difficult situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

For the final question, we have Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Brigadier-General Trudeau, what additional factors do you think need to be considered with respect to members of the Canadian Armed Forces serving abroad?

Also, what changes do you think would be necessary to encourage even more victims and survivors to share their experiences?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for the questions.

I think we need to publicize what we're doing in the military police, the changes we're putting in place in training, and what we're doing to better accommodate victims so they have confidence in the system and the police service. I don't think there's a police service out there that wouldn't love to have the trust of the public that they serve to get their job done.

Our job is to serve the public, and I think it's important to take the right steps, to figure out what can be changed, but also to communicate the changes that are being made, so that the Department of Defence community has greater confidence in their police service.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent. We're going to end it there.

I want to thank both of our witnesses for their testimony today. I know we will make a difference when we submit our report and see the changes that are coming.

Committee members, we will for sure see you on Thursday. We're going to commence and hopefully finish our report on unpaid work.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adjourn?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Madam Chair, I want to make sure the request for the tabling of General Carignan's mandate performance objectives is put on the record and followed up with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I see the clerk nodding.

We'll see you on Thursday.

The meeting is adjourned.