Status of Women Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I call this meeting to order.

It's currently 4:32 p.m.

Welcome to meeting number 128 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

I would like to remind all members of the following points: Please wait until I recognize you by name prior to speaking, and I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 25, 2024, the committee will continue with its study of gender-based violence and femicides.

Before we welcome our witnesses—

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Madam Chair. I have a point of order.

I don't know if it's the same for Ms. Larouche, but there seems to be a problem with the sound.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

For those of you who are online, we are dealing with something.

We will continue.

I was about to suggest that prior to welcoming our witnesses, I'd like to provide a trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to violence and femicide, and this may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help at any point, please advise the clerk.

For all witnesses and all members of Parliament, it is important that we recognize that these are difficult discussions, so we should try to be as compassionate as possible.

For today's panel, we have, from the Canadian Anti-Stalking Association, Julie S. Lalonde, executive director.

Welcome.

From the Crime Victims Assistance Centre, we have Jackie Huet, director general of the Estrie region, and Karine Gagnon, organizational support and development coordinator, who are both joining us by video conference.

From McMaster University, we have Lenore Lukasik-Foss, director of the sexual violence prevention and response office in the equity and inclusion office.

Joining us by video conference, from the Peterborough Police Service, is Stuart Betts, chief of police.

We will begin with opening remarks of up to five minutes. For witnesses and members, moving forward throughout the course of the meeting, I will be delicately and politely raising my one-minute and 30-second signs to keep the meeting as organized and efficient as we can.

At this point, I would like to invite Ms. Lalonde to start.

You have the floor for your opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Julie S. Lalonde, Executive director, Canadian Anti-Stalking Association]

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Julie S. Lalonde, and I have been working to end gender-based violence for 22 years.

During my career, I have trained more than 50,000 Canadians on their role as witnesses to help prevent violence. I have created awareness campaigns, developed policies and had countless difficult conversations about the reality of men's violence against women in Canada. I have also experienced it.

When I was 18 years old, I found myself in an abusive relationship. It took me two years and two tries, but I did what we told women to do and I left. Unfortunately for me and countless other women across Canada, this did not end the violence, but instead set off a new form. I went on to be stalked by my abusive ex-boyfriend for a decade. The terror only ended with his sudden death a few weeks after my 30th birthday.

A few weeks after that, I was scheduled to speak at the annual Take Back the Night march happening in Pembroke. I had been working in the community for the past few years, researching the experiences of rural sexual assault survivors, who are so often forgotten by policy-makers living in big cities like Ottawa and Toronto. It felt like the perfect setting to share my story aloud for the first time.

Instead, on September 22, 2015, rather than standing on a street corner with a megaphone to break the silence, I was barricaded inside the sexual assault centre with my colleagues because one angry, vengeful man went on a rampage. Carol Culleton, Anastasia Kuzyk and Nathalie Warmerdam were killed that day by a man who had previously been incarcerated for committing violence against women. Again, we could not march in the streets to fight violence against women because our lives were at risk.

Much has been said about Carol, Anastasia and Nathalie's murders. The 2022 coroner's inquest into the triple femicides concluded with 86 recommendations. I encourage committee members to read the report, as well as the Mass Casualty Commission report and the Femicide Observatory's yearly reports. There is so much important research and analysis already out there to help us end gender-based violence. We are not lacking in recommendations.

For today's purposes, I would like to focus on one specific recommendation regarding criminal harassment. Stalking is a precursor to femicide. If you are being stalked, your life is at risk. This is not a matter of opinion; it is a well-established fact, by every possible risk assessment tool in existence.

Why do women's shelters exist? They exist because women fleeing intimate partner violence need a safe place to land. Why are women's shelters' addresses kept confidential? They are kept confidential because those women are being stalked.

We know that stalking is a major red flag, yet in Canada, we lack the public conversations necessary to drive home its severity. Most people do not even know what stalking is, how common it is or how dangerous it is. As a result, they do not intervene to help or call out their friends and loved ones who engage in the behaviour, and victims themselves rarely understand the danger they are facing.

This is our current reality, but it need not be our future one. I am imploring this committee to listen to experts and implement the changes needed to end this epidemic.

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lalonde.

Next I would like to welcome Madame Gagnon and Madame Huet.

Ladies, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Karine Gagnon, Organizational Support and Development Coordinator, CAVAC Network]

Good morning. My name is Karine Gagnon, and I am the organizational support and development coordinator for the Réseau des Centres d'aide aux victimes d'actes criminels, or the CAVAC Network. I am accompanied by my colleague Jackie Huet, director general of CAVAC in the Estrie region. Thank you for having us today.

The CAVAC Network's mission is to bring together all the CAVACs in the province of Quebec and to promote the needs of victims of crime, their loved ones and witnesses of such events. Our mission is also to seek out and share best practices in victimology intervention, to facilitate their harmonization, to make them known and to promote the expertise of CAVACs in this area, as well as to support the deployment of services.

Our network includes the province's 17 CAVACs, whose mission is to provide services to all victims of crime, regardless of their sex, age, gender identity and when the event occurred. These services, free of charge and confidential, are offered to everyone, whether or not the person has reported what they experienced to the authorities.

Today, we want to talk to you about certain services and specific teams that are put in place in our network to support people who are victims of gender-based violence—in other words, sexual violence and domestic violence.

When it comes to sexual violence, we act particularly in the area of sexual exploitation. We have a sexual exploitation response team of five workers across five regions of Quebec where the phenomenon is more frequent than elsewhere—in the Outaouais, Laval, Montérégie, Montreal and the Quebec City region. This response team works very actively and proactively with victims of this type of violence. It also works closely with police services that are dedicated to the fight against procuring, among other things. The teams located in these five regions also work in collaboration with each of the 17 CAVACs, which have sexual violence liaison and response officers.

These resources were put in place within the CAVACs in the wake of the #MeToo movement so that there would be at least one worker assigned to this type of victim who would, among other things, be able to follow up with victims in the five targeted regions. These people would not live in those regions, but they would like to return to their original region of residence.

As a result, there is really collaborative work and outreach to help victims get out of that environment and support them in terms of the consequences of their experience.

I will now yield the floor to my colleague Ms. Huet, who will talk to you specifically about the specialized court, the role of our liaison socio-judicial workers, as well as rapid response units in high-risk situations in the province.

[Jackie Huet, Director General, CAVAC, Estrie Region, CAVAC Network]

Good morning.

My name is Jackie Huet. I am a criminologist and the director general of the Estrie CAVAC, where I have been working for seven years. Prior to this position, I was a direct victim response officer.

We want to talk to you today about the most recent progress made in terms of our services. In 2022, when the specialized court on sexual and domestic violence was created, the Quebec Department of Justice gave us a new role, that of liaison socio-judicial worker, or ISL. In doing so, the department was trying to introduce a new approach, a safe approach, in partnership with the Crown prosecutor. This approach focused specifically on victims whom we were unable to reach, particularly those who are still under the control of the spouse or when there are requests to withdraw the charges.

This approach has really been tailored to the needs of these people, especially those with whom it is difficult to communicate. In addition, all CAVACs found that rapid response units for domestic violence were deployed in various forms in virtually all regions. These units make it possible to bring together a number of organizations around a table in a few hours, or in a day or two, to intervene and discuss cases that may involve a risk, such as situations where there is a risk of homicide in a spousal context. We could also take the idea of rapid response units, in which CAVACs participate, further.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you very much.

At this point, I would like to welcome Ms. Lukasik-Foss for five minutes.

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss, Director, Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Office, Equity and Inclusion Office, McMaster University]

Good afternoon, honourable members, staff and guests. Thank you so much for the opportunity to address this committee on the issue of gender-based violence and femicide against women, girls and gender-diverse people in Canada.

Today I'm appearing on behalf of McMaster University's Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Office and bringing over 30 years of experience in working to end all forms of gender-based and sexual violence in my community and beyond.

Before I continue, I'd like to share this: Ten years ago, on October 21, 2014—almost to the day, actually—I appeared before another parliamentary committee to discuss the issue of gender-based violence as it relates to homicide. Back then, we didn't call it “femicide”. I'm deeply saddened and angered that 10 years later, in many aspects, the situation is worse for women, girls and gender-diverse people in Canada, despite legislative and funding improvements.

I know this committee understands that we're facing an epidemic of gender-based violence in Canada. As University of Ottawa researcher and expert Dr. Holly Johnson states:

Gender-based violence is perhaps the most wide-spread and socially tolerated of human rights violations. It both reflects and reinforces inequities between men and women and compromises the health, dignity, security and autonomy of its victims.

We also know that gender-based violence is systemic and disproportionately impacts certain groups of Canadian women, girls and gender-diverse people. For example, indigenous women are killed at nearly seven times the rate of non-indigenous women. I also want to take a moment to highlight how gender-based violence is a serious concern on college and university campuses across Canada, a situation that has only been heightened in the postpandemic context. Women aged 15 to 24 are five times more likely than women over 25 to be physically or sexually assaulted by a non-intimate partner.

I know I don't need to convince this committee about the seriousness of this problem. I understand that many previous speakers have shared statistics on the prevalence of GBV, including femicide, and not just for this study. We also have numerous Canadian reports and recommendations, and we have heard from thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of survivors over the years. The 2019 National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls and trans and 2-spirit people released 231 calls for justice. In 2022, a Renfrew County inquest released 86 recommendations. In 2023, the Mass Casualty Commission released 130 recommendations, including 17 that specifically address gender-based violence. Seven provinces have domestic violence death review committees. Ontario had the first domestic violence death review committee in 2003. Since that time, they've reviewed over 500 deaths and made numerous recommendations. We have learned time and again that domestic violence deaths are preventable. Finally, we have a national action plan to end gender-based violence, and several provincial plans.

You might be wondering where I'm going with this. We have at our fingertips the evidence and best practices to proceed. We know what to do. As my colleague says, there's no shortage of recommendations, so what's getting in the way of our moving forward?

I can share with you that this feels frustrating, 30 years into this work, working with survivors who need things to change now and who are terrified for their lives, but I don't give up hope or stop working for change. I believe Canada can be a leader on ending all forms of gender-based violence, including femicide.

How do we get there? In addition to fully implementing the five pillars of our national action plan, I believe we need further coordination and accountability.

I want to share a promising approach that has the potential to facilitate real and lasting change and to help us move the needle. Last week, the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund released a report authored by Dr. Amanda Dale. It is entitled “What It Takes: Establishing a Gender-Based Violence Accountability Mechanism in Canada”. This excellent report outlines a path for the establishment of an independent gender-based violence commissioner, similar to an ombudsperson.

This office would strengthen the monitoring of Canada's adherence to international obligations concerning gender-based violence. This commissioner would also work in tandem with a national indigenous and human rights ombudsperson, which actually is call to justice 1.7. A report on this was just released on October 2, so it's quite relevant and timely. By creating an independent commissioner, Canada can join England, Wales, Finland and Australia as a leader in working to end all forms of gender-based violence and femicide.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you very much.

Now I'd like to welcome Mr. Betts as our last witness today.

[Stuart Betts, Chief of Police, Peterborough Police Service]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I should say Chief Betts.

[Stuart Betts]

That's okay. Thank you.

My name is Stuart Betts, and I am the chief of police for the Peterborough Police Service in the city of Peterborough, situated just 75 minutes northeast of Toronto. We are not immune to the types of crimes that happen in larger urban centres.

Thank you for the invitation to speak today on the subject of gender-based violence, and specifically femicide.

Let me make it clear that I do not hold myself out to be a subject matter expert on the subject of intimate partner violence, and nor am I a subject matter expert on femicide, but as chief of police, I am very much aware of the importance of this subject and the devastating after-effects of these types of crimes.

I was the deputy chief of police in London, Ontario, and worked with the police services board there when in 2022 they made a submission to the Prime Minister calling for femicide to be included in the Criminal Code of Canada.

In advance of today's meeting, I met with my victim services and intimate partner violence coordinators and sought their input as subject matter experts.

I also obtained a statement from Nathalie Leclerc, the daughter of Lise Fredette, who was the victim of a femicide—if femicide had existed as a Criminal Code offence—on November 12, 2014. Lise Fredette was 74 years old when she was murdered in Peterborough by her ex-partner, who was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison three years later.

Ms. Leclerc has provided me with permission to read the following:

My mother was strong-willed, hard-working, spoke her mind openly, and devoted herself deeply to her family, especially her grandchildren. She was the kind of person who, well into her senior years, took pride in her independence.

My fondest memories were the nightly phone calls we shared.

Those conversations were a cherished part of our bond, filled with warmth and support and laughter.

My mother confided that her ex-partner was struggling to move on.

As a daughter, I often reflect on signs that I may have missed.

During their relationship, there were numerous subtle behaviours that, in hindsight, were clear indicators of coercive control.

My mother told me about the letters and baked goods her ex-partner would leave at her door and mentioned even seeing him watching her with binoculars.

Despite Police intervention, this continued for some time before her death.

I often reflect on what her life might have been like if she had the chance to live it fully.

Today, she would have been 84 years old, and she would surely be retired, enjoying the arrival of her great-grandchild, and spending time with her family.

Sadly, I can report that Lise Fredette's body has never been found.

Obtaining accurate, reliable and comparable statistics for calls for service for intimate partner violence is nearly impossible. Intimate partner violence is, in and of itself, not a criminal offence; rather, it's the behaviours committed by those against their partners or ex-partners that form that offence. Therefore, intimate partner violence is not captured as part of the uniform crime report survey for police-reported crimes.

As the immediate past co-chair of the police information and statistics committee for the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, I can attest to the fact that we have made attempts to capture the data regarding intimate partner violence, most recently during the pandemic, but as of yet, no standard methodology for categorizing this type of call for service exists. I tell you this because in the context of femicide, most often connected with intimate partner violence, it's difficult to report data with any degree of accuracy.

This, of course, leads to the question at hand: Should femicide be included in the Criminal Code of Canada? This is a difficult question, because it asks us, the police, to address underlying motives when women are killed for no reason other than because they're women.

I have given a great deal of thought to this question. I believe such crimes do need to be considered. The question is, how? Some might suggest that it could and should be included in existing hate crime criteria. There may be a good argument for that, which would suggest that it could be contemplated at sentencing as an aggravating factor, but as a chief of police, I know there remains a great deal of community confusion about hate crimes—what they are, what they are not and how they're addressed by the police and the courts.

Such confusion often undermines the seriousness of the occurrence. More importantly, it undermines the trust and confidence in the judicial system itself. Quite frankly, in the wake of such confusion, communities that are affected directly, as well as indirectly, feel abandoned and devalued by those they turn to for safety and justice.

Therefore, if a clear and unequivocal message is to be sent about the horrific killing of a woman simply because they are a woman, and for no other reason than that, then it stands to reason that a stand-alone Criminal Code offence of femicide would be the approach that would make the most sense to the most people.

I would only suggest that either approach must be more than performative measures to address such crimes. If we're serious about the importance of this and if it's important enough to establish a committee, then it's important enough to provide the adequate supports and resources that must be followed to make it meaningful.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, and thank you all for your opening remarks.

I would also like to acknowledge that Mr. Carolo was unable to be here today to testify and that we will be making arrangements for him to join a further meeting.

Again, thank you to all the witnesses for your opening remarks.

At this point, we will move to our first round of questions.

I open the floor to MP Ferreri for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much to all of our witnesses for the work that you do on the front lines and for sharing such incredible stories that need to be told. We can't manage it if we don't talk about it.

When we're talking about femicides, we're talking about intimate partner violence, and 94 municipalities in Ontario have declared intimate partner violence an epidemic.

Chief Betts, I've had the privilege to go out with some of your officers on ride-alongs, and the calls of domestic violence are shocking. Do you have any stats to share with the committee on the number of domestic calls you would have, and have you've seen a change in those numbers in your time?

[Stuart Betts]

Thank you.

Through you, Chair, I do have 2023 stats for year-end, and of course for the year to date right now.

I can tell you that as of this particular time, year to date, this year we've had 1,132 calls related to domestic violence or intimate partner violence. The reason I'm going to suggest that this is significant is that we are a community of 100,000 people, and as we know, crime rates are on a per 100,000 per capita basis. This is a pretty good demographic and a pretty good community to use as a measure.

Last year, we had 1,457. Our community includes a university and a college. When I say we're not immune to the types of offences that happen in larger urban centres, I'd say it's largely because of not only the population base that we have, but also the students who come to our community. We've heard here today that our students are not immune to this type of violence either.

Out of those 1,132 so far this year, 238 have resulted in charges.

Now, this is difficult, and that's not to say that the rest were not intimate partner violence, but they come in as what's called a “domestic violence occurrence”. In a community like most policed communities, that occurrence incorporates family violence, which may not in fact trigger what we would look at as a mandatory charge related to domestic violence. It could be siblings who are called in, or it might be a parent with a child. However, for intimate partner violence, there have been 238 charges as a result of those calls.

Hopefully, that's what you asked for.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you. Yes, that's great.

One of the things that we're hearing a lot is that victim survivors are calling the police, and sometimes they don't feel supported or heard or that it takes too long to get to the call. I think it's very important to point out that police have now been tasked with being social service workers as well as police officers, and it's obviously taking a toll on the front line as well.

For me, when we look at the intimate partner violence, the best way to help with this is through the law. It is to ensure that criminals understand that there are consequences. Stalkers, as Ms. Lalonde has referred to, know that they can get away with it, which is just horrific. I think that is the biggest piece of this puzzle.

Chief Betts, what would you say to that? I don't know anybody other than police who really want to catch the bad guy, but if you catch the bad guy, and he goes to court.... I've sat in these bail courts, and then they're just released. We heard from Ms. Alexander that he bludgeoned her almost to death, and he was released on $500 bail the next day.

Where's that gap? Police charge people with criminal behaviour, but then the next piece of that puzzle is that they are held and then they're released on bail.

[Stuart Betts]

Thank you.

Chair, through you, it's a troubling thing for us. Of course, you've heard the call for bail reform from police chiefs across this country and here in Ontario. It results in a bit of a revolving door or a catch-and-release situation in which we are constantly trying to provide that process for safety.

We engage our victim services as best we can, and we provide, as all police services do, safety planning for those victims. Unfortunately, those victims are left by themselves. When the perpetrator or the accused is let out of jail, there's nobody standing on their doorstep between them and that perpetrator.

I know we've seen the recent use of ankle bracelets. That's well and good—subject, of course, to those batteries working. I can tell you that the police will become the battery police as well. When those batteries start to die, or when they do die, who's called to go and make sure somebody changes those batteries? It's the police. Although this results in another interaction with the accused, it unfortunately also goes to show some of the frailty of the system when they are let out, even with a tracker.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you.

I know I only have 30 seconds left.

I have two questions. It's a quick yes or no.

Obviously, my first question is, would you like to see Bill C-75 scrapped?

[Stuart Betts]

I would like to see it definitely modified, yes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

My second question is on this: One of the most shocking things I saw when I sat in your office was some of the stats about the children exposed to domestic violence and intimate partner violence. They are learning that this is what a relationship is.

I don't know whether you have those stats, and I know we're running out of time. Could you table them for the committee?

Children being exposed is probably one of the most troubling things I can say about this study.

[Stuart Betts]

Thank you.

Chair, through you, I would absolutely agree. It continues that cycle of violence and it continues a generational trauma passed down from parent to child.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, MP Ferreri.

MP Sonia Sidhu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being with us and sharing your knowledge today.

My first question is for Ms. Lalonde.

First of all, thank you for your efforts and the public education you are doing.

In 2014, a general social survey on Canadian safety found that nearly one in five victims of stalking also experienced actual physical violence.

What sort of preventive strategies are needed to keep stalking from escalating to femicide? You said that early intervention and recognizing stalking behaviour can prevent the escalation to femicide. I want to know your views.

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Thank you.

What we need to recognize is that when it comes to stalking, we are where sexual violence was 30 years ago. We don't even have a “Stalking101” understanding of what this looks like in Canada. When I use the term “criminal harassment”, Canadians look at me and say, “What?” They don't even know that's the legal term for it. A general 101 knowledge about what stalking is, what it looks like, how it's a problem and what we can do about it is lacking.

In January, I started the Canadian Anti-Stalking Association because we have never had a single organization in Canada dedicated to stalking—not one. We have shelters, which is great. We have sexual assault centres, which is fantastic. However, there's nowhere to go if you're a victim of stalking. People are going to Google to figure out whether this is even a crime and who they can talk to about it.

We are at that first step of needing to use all resources at our disposal to educate the public on what this looks like in person and certainly in the encroaching reality of online harassment as well.