It's a double yes.
Evidence of meeting #57 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was exploitation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #57 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was exploitation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Co-founder, Concertation des luttes contre l'exploitation sexuelle
It's a double yes.
11:40 a.m.
Lead Project Consultant, Women's Centre for Social Justice
Yes, I think that would be a cornerstone in prevention.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Okay, excellent.
I ask that because I often find in the House of Commons, wherever you stand on sex work and depending on which party you're in, that you either support really tangible things for prevention and protection or not. I'm going to continue pushing that, particularly to end any form of gender-based violence.
My next question is for Madam Snider.
You submitted a brief, and I want to speak specifically to the legislation everybody's talking about today. This came from the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform, which is an alliance of 25 sex worker rights groups across the country led predominantly by and for sex workers. I believe in decisions that are “nothing about us without us”.
Along with several individual applicants, they filed a constitutional challenge against the PCEPA in 2021, arguing the law violates sex workers' constitutional rights to “security, personal autonomy, life, liberty, free expression, free association, and equality.”
In your brief, you said:
In addition, as the laws related to sex work are again to be challenged in the Supreme Court in the near future, we want to caution against the conflation of sex work and sex trafficking. We acknowledge the divide between sex workers and sex worker rights advocates, and those impacted or trafficked in the industry.
I'm wondering if you could expand a bit on that point.
11:40 a.m.
Lead Project Consultant, Women's Centre for Social Justice
I think this has been a long-standing conversation, as it should be. My point there is that you can support the work to end human trafficking while also protecting the rights of those who are engaged in the sex industry by choice. That is what I was getting to with that point.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you.
Madam Walker, you spoke to the need to amend the bill to take out the criminalization of those in sex work. Is that right?
11:40 a.m.
Women’s Advocate and Retired Executive Director, London Abused Women’s Centre, As an Individual
No.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Do you believe we should still criminalize sex workers? I'm sorry. I'm just trying to understand.
11:40 a.m.
Women’s Advocate and Retired Executive Director, London Abused Women’s Centre, As an Individual
Women in the commercial sex industry are not generally charged or criminalized. They are immune from prosecution. It is the demand for service—the men—that is criminalized. There is a section in the legislation, however, that may criminalize women if they are prostituting themselves in areas close to schools and things like that. That's what I would like to remove.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Madam Chair, could you pause Ms. Gazan's time.
I don't know what is happening with the interpretation, but I keep hearing things like “microphone not on” and “microphone inaudible”. I don't know what is happening, but perhaps we could take a moment to try to fix this technical issue.
I'm sorry, Ms. Gazan.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Yes, absolutely there is a problem.
If we're not using our microphones, we have to make sure we turn them off. All members and all witnesses, could we pay attention to that? Thank you so much.
11:45 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
We'll work all we can. We'll make sure there's fairness.
Is everybody okay right now? Everything is working.
The floor goes back to you, Leah.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Getting back to Madam Snider, I asked that question because you mentioned Butterfly. What is it?
11:45 a.m.
Lead Project Consultant, Women's Centre for Social Justice
It's Butterfly Toronto for migrant sex workers.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
One of the things they said—and I quoted them in the last committee meeting—was about how the way the system's currently set up places migrant sex workers particularly, who are not being trafficked, at risk, because even if something happens, they are scared to report because they are afraid of being deported.
We had the IRCC in the other day, and you, in your report, cautioned against harm and mass deportation of migrant sex workers who do not identify as survivors of trafficking as a way to protect women from predators.
Can you expand on that, please?
11:45 a.m.
Lead Project Consultant, Women's Centre for Social Justice
Yes.
I want to speak as well to the suggestion that in the laws, women shouldn't be charged or are not charged: Women are charged every day for crimes related to trafficking. That's a great example of how that legislation is used to disproportionately impact, criminalize or deport folks.
Women are charged constantly for fraud-related charges and for trafficking others while under the direction of their trafficker, despite what the law currently says.
You mentioned—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
I had stopped your time. You have one second. During the point of order, I stopped everything. Sorry, Leah.
We are going to be going around. We will be starting our second round. We only have eight minutes left, so we will go to Dominique and then over to Sonia. It will be two minutes and two minutes.
Go ahead, Dominique, for five minutes.
March 27th, 2023 / 11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you, ladies, for being here with us today.
Ms. Matte, could you explain the difference between men and women who choose to work in the sex trade and human trafficking?
I think we are confusing those concepts a little.
When does it become trafficking? Is it when there is someone who is taking or managing the money? How should that be understood?
11:45 a.m.
Co-founder, Concertation des luttes contre l'exploitation sexuelle
It's not a simple matter.
I think that we've gotten too accustomed to looking at human trafficking from a purely legal perspective. When we see what prostitution does to the lives of women, we see that it doesn't really matter whether we refer to it as trafficking or not. The Palermo convention sought to define trafficking as situations in which people are displaced, their documents are withheld, or conditions are imposed on them so that they actually become slaves or entrapped.
Regardless of what led these women or men to enter the sex trade, we have enough information to know that prostitution itself has a major impact on the lives of women, who are the ones who are primarily concerned, obviously. Trafficking is another element that adds to the various forms of violence they may experience.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Are these people always moved or displaced?
11:45 a.m.
Co-founder, Concertation des luttes contre l'exploitation sexuelle
No, not necessarily, especially not across the border. In Canada, for example, most cases involve domestic trafficking, meaning it occurs between cities in the same country. Right now, particularly because of the recent case before the Ontario Court of Appeal and the lobby that is trying to completely decriminalize prostitution, the danger is that people are talking as though there is some healthy type of prostitution that can please women and make them rich, happy people. In reality, that is not true. I have seen thousands of these women. We talk to many women from around the world.
There is an idea going around that there could be a well-regulated, properly governed industry that would benefit women, where all of the women would be treated properly. In every county where prostitution exists and, of course, in every country that legalized, regulated or even completely decriminalized it, such as New Zealand, the everyday reality is that there are more indigenous women in the sex trade and more children who are being brought into it. It is the sex trade that—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Excuse me. I don't have very much time.
I want to follow up on what you were saying earlier about the massage parlours.
There are massage parlours, motels and hotels. One of my colleagues mentioned highway 401 last week. There are starting to be quite a few places and quite a few people who are seeing all this movement within their walls, in hotels and on the highways.
How is it that we are unable to uncover more of this than we are now?
How are the police acting in this regard? Are they making this issue a priority?