Status of Women Committee on March 27th, 2023

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I totally hear that.

Ms. Sinclaire, would you like to add to that?

[Kate Sinclaire]

Yes. I was just going to talk specifically about law enforcement and especially about anti-trafficking training programs that keep these conflation definitions going.

In Winnipeg we have the Joy Smith Foundation, which is well funded and educates our police on trafficking. That group also conflates sex work and trafficking. When police are themselves educated, they are educated to see sex workers as both trafficked and trafficker, so they are absolutely charged under these laws.

Another group, one that is not in my city, trains the RCMP as well as a bunch of Alberta police services. I did their training program for fun to see what they are saying. They say that studies show that human trafficking increases when the sex trade industry thrives. This means human trafficking and exploitation will continue as long as there is a demand for commercial sex work.

Their goal is to put an end to sex workers. I want to be clear about this: It's not just to end a commercial sex industry; it is talking about pushing workers underground, and the cost doesn't matter.

I'd just like to really outline that this is the training our law enforcement is receiving.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

In a way, I agree a bit with one of the things that our previous witness said, in the sense that demand is obviously what grows the need for supply. There's a bigger need for supply, and that may make traffickers try to recruit more people and try to push more people in that direction.

If it's not through law enforcement, what are some other ways that we can educate people? At what age should that education begin in order to make sure that they're aware of what a trafficker might look like and how to protect themselves from being put into that trade?

[Jenn Clamen]

I can start.

I don't know what a trafficker looks like. I don't know if you know what a trafficker looks like. I think it's a ridiculous notion to assume that we could ever know what a trafficker looks like, when all of you are using definitions of trafficking that aren't actually the same.

I will go back to the idea that nobody's saying not to use law enforcement in any way whatsoever, but there are certain laws at law enforcement's disposal that are actually causing harm to people in the sex industry, like the sex work laws. It's not just to people in the sex industry, but to all people who sell or trade sex in general. It's the sex work laws, the loitering laws and the regulations in the IRPR, so it's a question of removing those laws and then simultaneously—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Jenn.

We're now going to move to Rhéal Fortin for six minutes, please.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Sinclaire and Ms. Clamen, thank you for being with us.

Protecting sex workers from human trafficking is an important issue. One of the biggest difficulties is that we are not always talking about the same thing when we talk about it. You mentioned it before. It is important to make a distinction between sex workers and victims of human trafficking.

I would ask you, each in turn, to come back to that to clarify and state, as simply as possible, the difference that you see between sex workers and the victims of human trafficking.

Ms. Sinclaire, I will ask you to go first.

[Kate Sinclaire]

In general, we can start with how sex workers are operating consensually. There can be a number of different factors that influence that consent, as I was talking about with the story I presented about the indigenous sex worker. There are conditions that make people have to make that choice. Sometimes other groups will consider that trafficking, but in this case—

[A voice]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Is it the interpretation again? Do we need to take a pause?

I'm going to speak in English and see if the translation is working.

Dominique and Rhéal, can you hear me?

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

The problem is with the witness's microphone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Kate, can you keep on speaking to ensure that your microphone is working?

[Kate Sinclaire]

Can you hear me now?

Excellent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Keep on speaking.

[Kate Sinclaire]

It's very important to understand that people make their choices for different reasons. Just because it's a choice that someone else wouldn't make doesn't automatically make it trafficking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

The earphone that Ms. Sinclaire is using is too close to this piece right here. Perhaps if you take off your earpiece while you're speaking and set it aside, that may work.

I'm getting a thumbs-up. Okay, great.

We're going to turn it back to you. I know you started to answer that question.

Rhéal, are you good with her just going back to answering the question?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Yes, Madam Chair.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You had four minutes and 32 seconds when I stopped the clock, so I will continue to watch this.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Sinclaire, I will repeat my question because I do not know how much of it you heard.

I was talking about the importance of making a distinction between sex workers and victims of human trafficking since the two are not treated or protected in the same way. In my opinion, human traffickers should be punished, whereas sex workers likely should not be.

I would like to understand the distinction that you make between the two. Please clarify that as much as possible in one minute, please.

I would like Ms. Sinclaire to answer first and then Ms. Clamen.

[Kate Sinclaire]

The distinction between the two, again, is that generally folks in sex work are choosing to be there. It's a consensual occupation. Again, the reasons that people come to sex work might be varied. It might not be the choice that everyone would make, but we have to remember that these are choices people need to make to survive under the conditions we have given them in Canada.

The distinction between sex work and trafficking would be folks who didn't choose to be there, but with the emphasis that not choosing to be there doesn't include making survival choices.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, there is no interpretation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We will suspend for a second, please.

This has been a lovely Monday morning that we're all getting to enjoy. Kate and Jenn, we're really enjoying this conversation, so I think we might ask you to come back.

We are missing out on about 10 minutes. We will not be able to get to those questions. We will have to stop and restart the system.

I'm sorry about that, Anita.

What we are going to do is extend an invitation to both Kate and Jenn for just a couple of minutes. We have had your opening statements, so it will be just for questions, because I know that both Rhéal and Leah have questions they want to ask. It's just that our system is not working.

What I'm going to do now is close this section of the meeting and then restart and go in camera, because there is committee business as part of this committee meeting as well.

There are two things: We're going to shut down this part of the meeting and restart in camera. That means we'll be in camera, so all staff who are not affiliated with a member or a party must leave the room.

Jenn and Kate, can I get—

Go ahead, Rhéal.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, I simply want to mention that we also need interpretation services when we are working in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

It is a different problem.

This computer has to be shut down. That's the biggest thing. That is what's causing these microphone issues.

I'm going to suspend, and we will reconvene in a couple of minutes, hopefully.

[Proceedings continue in camera]