Transport Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Mark Duncan]

On the weight and the size of the item, it is up to the airline. That's a safety issue. But I'll just read the precise--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Don Bell]

I'm glad you were ready for this question.

[Mark Duncan]

I took your question seriously.

A screening authority shall not permit a person to pass beyond a screening checkpoint while they're in possession of more than two items of carry-on baggage. In applying this provision, the items set out in part 1 of schedule 5 shall be counted, and those set out in part 2 of that schedule shall not be counted.

I won't bore you with the two schedules, but schedule 1 is basically about your carry-on baggage: your computer case, your fold-over bag, and so on. If you have three items that look like that, you will be stopped.

The other list is for purses. The purse has to be 11 inches by 12 inches by two inches. You're allowed to take two items plus a purse, or two items plus your coat, or two items plus other things. I think you were saying that it was interpreted slightly differently at another location, and that's entirely possible, because you can see that, depending on the size--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Don Bell]

I didn't want to take much time on that. I just wanted to get the answer, that was all.

Mr. McGuinty, Mr. Laframboise, and then Mr. Jean.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I have a couple of quick questions, and I'd really appreciate shorter answers. I'm trying to get through some material here, over-prepared as I am.

I'll start with maybe a gratuitous comment about cargo screening. You know, in the wake of 9/11 and the commission report, with the ongoing Air India inquiry and even with the effects of the hurricane in the south of the United States, if you stopped a thousand citizens getting off the Montreal metro today and you asked them who is responsible for security in airplanes, I'll bet the overwhelming majority wouldn't say the airlines. I'll bet they would say that the government is responsible for security.

I want to go back to a couple of specific points on this issue. I met with a company recently that's in the business of basically ID cards, biometric readers and so on. This company already has 30,000 passengers in Orlando alone who have full biometric cards for expedited passenger screening at Orlando airport. At JFK, I think it's estimated at around 150,000 or 200,000, and growing rapidly.

I know you're talking about getting this done over a certain amount of time, but I just want to deposit that with you and move to another point, which is turnover at airports.

Your quarterly performance report, Mr. Duchesneau, which I commend you for producing, targets a 10% annual turnover rate. That seems high to me. Right now you're reporting an annual turnover rate of just under 15%.

When you were asked about this, I think your explanation was that there was a hot job market. Another way of putting this, I guess, is that the job benefits are simply not competitive with those in other careers. I understand your screeners make about half of what border guards make--on average, $12.86 per hour.

Senator Kenny has been quoted as saying he's very concerned with the whole issue of how the government is going about hiring its screeners, in that you can't do it well with minimum wages and no benefits. You're going to have a very high turnover and you're always going to be training people, because people will be leaving jobs they don't like.

What's your plan going forward to reduce turnover?

I want to come back to the breaches. Mr. Cherry may want to correct me, but as I understand it, Garda was involved in some breaches and yet had its two-year contract of $220 million renewed to 2009. Could anyone explain to me why Garda should have had that contract renewed?

[Jacques Duchesneau]

There were three questions there.

Perhaps I can ask Mr. McGarr to answer the first one, about Clear.

[Kevin McGarr]

We've been working very closely with the company that developed the solution currently being deployed in Orlando. We've met with them over the last year, looking at the feasibility of producing a similar type of program within the Canadian environment. We have developed a concept of operations, which is currently being studied. We have done a threat and risk assessment, which we have forwarded to Transport Canada. We are working very closely with the Canadian Airports Council and a number of individual airports on specific initiatives to see if this model would in fact serve the Canadian market well.

So this is an issue that we have been involved with for the last while, and we continue to be very interested. It is one of the solutions we are looking at in order to create a Canadian solution to our situation.

[Jacques Duchesneau]

On the job market, the turnover rate, and all that, yes, I was asked the question by Senator Kenny. The turnover rate right now is 12%. And yes, depending on the area we're talking about, it's different. Alberta, for instance, has a higher turnover rate, mainly because of the competition with other industries. I want to remind you that for federal agents in the United States, the TSA turnover rate is between 25% and 35%.

We just did a tour of the country for the second year in a row; we call that the “Sharing CATSA's Vision” tour, where we meet with front-line screeners. Obviously wages are an issue that they raise, but the commitment of those employees has nothing to do with the salary. It's really believing that they're making a difference in the security of this country, and they do. They like the training that we give them and they're asking for more training. They want to be recognized as a group that is dedicated to security. But wages are a problem, so much so that we addressed the issue with our board, and we just received a new mandate from our board to take a look at compensation as a whole. The decision was taken in 2002. Five years down the road we need to rethink the way we look at compensation, so it's going to be addressed soon.

I think I need to emphasize commitment. Really, they are committed. Whenever you go through an airport, talk to the people. I was impressed by the quality of their answers.

On the contract, since Mr. Duncan took care of that, I will let him answer the question.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Don Bell]

Very briefly, Mr. Duncan, if you can, please.

[Mark Duncan]

Very briefly, CATSA did a major request for proposals in 2003. We awarded a three-year contract to the winners of the RFPs, and in that contract we had a two-year option, at CATSA's option. That three-year contract is up in March 2007. We've done negotiations with the service providers and we're exercising that two-year option effective March 2007.

We've also put in major improvements into that contract through negotiation. The service provider has to report and he has a certain amount of money associated with this, a performance payment program, in terms of meeting turnover targets, staffing targets, and also staffing to the peaks and valleys of the airport.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Don Bell]

Thank you.

Mr. Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Cherry, when we asked you earlier whether airfield security was full proof, you said that no—a response that I think comes rather easily to you. I can understand that, since your primary goal is not to manage security. Moreover, you joined ADM before September 2001.

Who is responsible for security in your organization? Is there someone in charge of security, or is it an ADM vice-president?

[James Cherry]

Security is the responsibility of Mr. Boivin, Vice-President of Airport Operations.

As I explained in my presentation, this is not a simple issue. Some aspects of security are completely outside our direct purview. For example, criminal activities on the airfield are the responsibility of a number of government agencies. However, whenever we obtain information on such activities, we are responsible for conveying it to the appropriate agencies.

I'd like to ask Mr. Boivin to answer.

[Normand Boivin, Vice-President, Operating, Aéroports de Montréal (Dorval and Mirabel)]

I am responsible for security.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

What experience do you have and how many people report to you?

[Normand Boivin]

Approximately 500 members of staff report to me. I have an indirect reporting relationship with those who work at the airport. However, as Mr. Cherry pointed out, the committee made up of managers in charge of applying the legislation meets regularly, makes any necessary observations, and decisions to ensure security and safety in the facilities.

A journalist passed under a fence one and a half kilometres from the terminal, then turned back. That is the kind of thing that happens, and that could happen again. Did he reach the aircraft? Did he represent a genuine threat to civil aviation by passing under a fence for 30 seconds? The answer, I would maintain, is no.

We cannot say the incident is negligible, but corrective measures have to be proportionate to the actual risk involved.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

That is not up to you to determine, Mr. Boivin, it is up to the people to determine whether their safety is threatened or not. Your duty is to respond.

Earlier, Mr. Cherry said that you conduct unscheduled inspections, probably spot checks, on your tenants. Do you have a service that conducts those checks?

[Normand Boivin]

We did more than that. We conducted visits, which lasted more than 30 seconds. We did not just show up to ask whether they had a program, then only to leave and thank them. We sat down with them to look closely at what they do and how they do it. We put our own services and the services of other people who can help us at our tenants' disposal. Then, we took measures regarding the means in place. We have a contractual relationship with the tenants.

Earlier, you asked whether tenants were serious about security. Most of our tenants have a very keen interest in security, because we implement measures for them. They are the ones who are responsible for the flights and who would be exposed to risk. So they are very concerned about security, and take measures to guard against the risks.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

As a member of Parliament, I have to ensure that the security of citizens is never threatened. Otherwise, I have to rely on journalists to do that job, and applaud them when they do.

I would like know about your measures. You conduct unscheduled inspections. Mr. Grégoire was sitting where you are on Tuesday, and said that at present 140 Transport Canada inspectors were engaged in conducting inspections, some of them on the ground.

In your view, is that sufficient? Would you prefer not to comment on the work of Transport Canada inspectors? Is it enough? If not, I will have to rely on journalists once again and encourage them to repeat their good work in identifying faults in the system—that is what has to be done if we are to ensure that such incidents do not happen again.

[Normand Boivin]

Personally, I find it unfortunate that you rely on the opinion of a single individual, whether we share that opinion or not.

I will not comment on the work of Transport Canada inspectors. I think they can answer that question themselves.

We work very closely with people from Transport Canada, as well as with people on Mr. Duchesneau's team, the Montreal police force, the Sûreté du Québec and the RCMP.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Earlier, the other witness said the system would not be full proof, do you agree with that?

[Normand Boivin]

No one can guarantee a full-proof security system anywhere, even in prisons. If I told you that the system was full proof, I would be lying. Will we take measures to ensure that such incidents don't happen again? Absolutely. Have we already taken such measures? We are looking into them very seriously at the moment.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Has security improved since the journalist came under the fence?

[Normand Boivin]

Absolutely.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

So we should thank him.