Evidence of meeting #37 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
When you sent out your survey, were you involved in that survey?
5:05 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
I contracted a company to do that, and we provided a list of Transport Canada inspectors because we wanted to survey only the people who were actually civil aviation inspectors at Transport Canada.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
How many people were on that list that you provided?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
An invitation was sent by e-mail to 377 individuals, and 247 individuals decided to complete the survey online.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
These inspectors I'm referring to are the inspectors who are pilots. There are other inspectors in Transport Canada who have other areas of expertise—aviation maintenance engineers, cabinet safety experts, dangerous good experts—but the numbers and information that I've given to you exclusively have to do with our pilot members.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
So it was sent out to all your pilot members and they responded. In fact, not one said SMS would not improve aviation safety in Canada: 8% said they didn't know, and 92% said it would improve it.
February 21st, 2007 / 5:10 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
No, that was not what it said. If I refer to the document itself, 92% of the respondents to the question, “In theory, do you believe a safety management system could improve aviation safety in Canada?”, responded by saying they do believe it would be a good idea, in theory. The other 8% said they don't know.
5:10 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
That's correct. It's a good concept.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Indeed, earlier you mentioned a balanced approach. I was wondering if you could tell me what you meant by “a balanced approach”.
5:10 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
What we mean by “a balanced approach” is what's advocated by ICAO in its safety management manual. At tab 8, you'll see appendix 1 to chapter 10 of the safety management manual that is put out by ICAO as the international standard and recommended procedures for safety management systems. In that appendix, ICAO refers to the responsibilities of both the civil aviation authority and the operational organizations. They're talking about making sure that there's adequate “fulfilment of regulatory functions (such as licensing, surveillance and enforcement)” and adequate “resources and organization for the magnitude and complexity of regulatory requirements”. In fact, they indicate that if there is inadequate provision of those things by the civil aviation authority, it is in fact an indicator of poor safety health for that state.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
What does this new system not include in terms of what you've just said? My understanding is that it actually includes all of those things.
What I'm asking specifically is the same thing that my colleague Mr. Fast asked about earlier. We've heard from pretty much everyone except, quite frankly, bargaining agents for union members, that this is a great system and that it in fact puts another layer over and above. Your words were “regulations have been curtailed”, “things have been shut down”, “things have been switched”, and “activities have been changed”.
I'm asking—and I think all members of this committee are asking—what more you can tell us specifically about how regulations will be curtailed under this system and what has been shut down already. It has been in place in some form for two or three years, has it not?
5:10 p.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
That's correct.
I've tabled documents with you to show that the audit and inspection programs are being shut down and that the investigation of reports of occurrences within companies will no longer be done, regardless of the source. I fully agree with Mr. Boucher and my colleagues here that under SMS it's essential to have confidentiality with an internal reporting system, and that flight safety departments need to be able to have that information internally within the company. That does not mean that when Transport Canada gets a report from a concerned citizen or from a police officer in some location that they have some concern about something, Transport Canada should do nothing about it or that they should simply refer it to the company and not look into the matter whatsoever. What I am telling you today, sir, is that this is no longer occurring.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Mr. Jenner, could you speak a little bit about partnership? You talked about a partnership over and above the current regulations. Did you mean a partnership between Transport Canada and the providers of the service? What did you mean, specifically?
5:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Helicopter Association of Canada
I meant a partnership between all levels of the industry and all levels of Transport Canada. We're effecting a cultural change from the “we have to find out who's guilty” culture to the “we have to find a way of preventing this from happening again” culture.
We're enlisting the partnership of the employees. They have the information that managers need. If we can get that information up to the management, the management will use it to try to prevent the accidents.
The partnership with Transport Canada goes from Transport trying to detect all the faults in the system to Transport managing the system and seeing to it that the system is looking for the faults itself and correcting them.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thanks a lot, Mr. Jenner.
Do any other witnesses here today see reasonableness in Mr. Holbrook's comments? I'm not asking for you to counter him. I am asking if you see reasonableness in what he's brought forward specifically in relation to the safety concerns of the Canadian airline industry.
Anybody? Mr. Jenner? Mr. Boucher?
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Helicopter Association of Canada
I have one comment to make that I find very important. I have sat across the table from Merlin Preuss for 15 years, and I know him to be a hard-nosed manager who seldom gives me what I want, but I also know him to be one of the most honest and forthright public servants I have ever met.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
What about the comments Mr. Holbrook has brought forward?
I'm still on the same question, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, but we haven't heard anything, so that must mean—
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Helicopter Association of Canada
I don't find any merit in the negative comments of Mr. Holbrook. I think it's jumping forward. We're moving forward, and Mr. Holbrook is looking at the future without seeing the intermediary steps.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Mr. Bélanger. We're going to do one more run down there, two or three minutes--we're following the rules.
Mr. Bélanger.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
I had five points that I wished to discuss; I will only touch on the first two. These are questions for our staff. Two weeks ago, the Department of Transport indicated that it was sending us some documents, such as the proposed amendments, the existing legislation, the proposals, and so forth.
First of all, have we received these documents? I think that two weeks should be enough.
Second, what is the existing legal and regulatory framework for safety management systems?
Essentially, what are the current legal and regulatory underpinnings for SMSs today? I think that might be useful information to have.
For the witnesses, Mr. Boucher, during your testimony you seemed to be concerned with the power to delegate regulation-making. Are you concerned in particular with section 5.31, with the notion that the organizations that would be designated by Transport Canada could establish standards--essentially three or four times throughout this--subsections 5.31(1) and (2), in particular, “establishment of standards”, and then “a designated organization has all the powers necessary to monitor compliance with the standards and rules that it establishes”? Is that your concern?
5:15 p.m.
Senior Director, Flight Safety, Air Canada Pilots Association
Our concern is having the airlines establish regulations and govern themselves. We just don't think in this competitive, commercial environment of the airline industry anywhere in the world that this is a good way to go right now. Maybe later on, when we can have that safety culture established, but right now we don't have a safety culture.