Evidence of meeting #2 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was able.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Maloney has advised me that he had to step out, but he has five minutes and will share the time with Mr. Volpe and Mr. Bell.
10:40 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to come back to a very brief, I guess technical question, Mr. Minister. It's for Madam Borges. It is about how the collective will of shippers is going to be determined.
Will it be voluntarily, by two or more shippers, with their submissions then applying to all? Or do you foresee the establishment of an organization or a series of organizations that must receive some authentication or registration by Transport Canada as part of the process? Have you gone that far yet?
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
My first approach on that, Mr. Volpe, would be that of course it's a sectoral approach: the fertilizer industry, the grain handlers.... It's a sectoral approach.
But I'll let—
10:40 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
But in that sectoral approach, do you still have a certification or authentication system?
10:40 a.m.
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
The provision requires that in the group FOA the matter be common to the shippers who are asking for the matter to be resolved. When they file their application with the agency, there is a provision included in the legislation that allows the railway to contest, if they believe that the matter is not common to all of them, and to appeal to the agency.
The agency will review it and make sure that it is common to the group of shippers. The shippers have an opportunity to respond as well, once the agency determines that the matter will proceed.
So it's really upon the shippers to come in with a matter that is very similar for all of them. And the offer—it's one offer—has to apply to all of them. It's not multiple offers, because this would drag out the process a lot.
It's the matter and the offer that have to be common.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
Pursuing that same line of questioning, one of the problems in the past that I've heard identified is that some shippers feel they have been, for want of a better term, bullied by some of the railways and that there is a risk in complaining.
There is the ability to group together both in terms of sharing legal costs and for protection, if you want to call it that, so that it isn't just one person being singled out. If these have to be matters common to all of the shippers, that fact reduces to some degree their ability to share costs. I'm thinking of commercial associations in the past that will group together, where one may not be affected as much as another, but they group together to share the costs, because the next time they'll seek the support of the others in another way.
As long as there's an agreement that it applies to all of them and that there is some thread of legitimacy in terms of application, as opposed.... I can see this becoming bureaucratic.
You say on page 5 of your presentation, Mr. Minister, that it's a new concept and undoubtedly will be subject to challenges as the parties seek to clarify, and that we have to rely on the good judgment of the agency. I guess the issue will be that if problems persist, we may have to adjust the legislation to provide direction to the agency as to what is intended by Parliament.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC
I agree with that last statement, but I'll let Ms. Borges answer.
10:45 a.m.
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
We're really trying to balance two competing objectives here. We heard the comments you made from a lot of the shippers, and that it was very important to have a timely resolution of the matter. The final offer arbitration is very timely. It gives you a quick black-and-white response—there's no grey zone. In fact, the response is whatever offer comes in from the shippers or the railways.
To limit that we need to make sure it is a common matter. The agency has a lot of expertise in dealing with these kinds of issues, so I think they will be able to determine that. The offer has to be common, otherwise the arbitrator would be left in the very difficult situation of trying to reconcile different offers from different shippers. The individual FOA is still there and available if a shipper has a very particular case and wants to go at it alone. But this one is really to allow the group that finds it more cost-effective, or in the case of some sectors where the issues are identical and it doesn't matter what shippers they are, it allows them to band together and solve it in one shot.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you, Ms. Borges.
I have to advise people sitting at the back of the room that we are now concluding this portion of our meeting and will be going in camera for about ten minutes. We ask that the pertinent people stay, and the rest will have to vacate the room very briefly.
I want to thank the minister and his staff for attending today and providing us with very frank and straightforward answers. I'm sure that if there are other questions from the committee, we will have access to the department to get those answers.
We'll take a two-minute adjournment.
Thank you for coming, and I'll ask that the room be cleared.
[Proceedings continue in camera]