Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2009

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Again, if you have suggestions on that, I'd welcome hearing them.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes, and I'll share them with all of my colleagues around the table.

I have a question, because it did capture my interest, around the reforms to the NCC as a structure.

One of the things I had proposed—and it wasn't in this bill, and that's fine—is how we get some local reflection in the NCC. I know the NCC's mandate and I fully ascribe to it, but one of the proposals was that there would be a peer selection of someone from each of the respective councils to be on the NCC. I'm not going to fight that battle, but I'd encourage all of us to have both the Quebec and the Ontario sides of the equation, both the Ottawa and Gatineau sides, be more involved.

I'll just give you that in the past there has been a lack of consultation and involvement on transportation, so I'm glad to see that. There has been in this city, I don't have to tell you, concerns about transportation plans, not just on this side of river, in Ottawa, but also how it connects with Quebec and Gatineau, and I have to tell you that until recently there was no connection at all. In fact, the NCC was off on the side. Thankfully, they are now taking a leadership role. I happen to know they've been invited by Gatineau council. I think there will be meetings with Ottawa council. But I think if there's anything we can do, whether it's in this legislation or otherwise, to really push that....

Minister, we know that the potential of the NCC is to do good planning, to facilitate things. I don't really want to see bridges being thrown over to the NCC, quite frankly, but I want to see them facilitating so we get out of the morass of what we see in transportation. Have you any ideas on how we can improve that, either in this legislation and ideas behind that or otherwise?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think Minister Cannon has spoken very strongly on the need for better transportation planning. I guess we do have to be cognizant that such a sliver of both the Ontario and Quebec sides is actually interprovincial, and we have to respect jurisdiction on either side. I think there has to be a greater coordinating role or facilitating role by the commission. We obviously hadn't proposed to go further than that. If you have specific suggestions, I'm sure we'd all welcome hearing them.

It is a delicate balance, because at the end of the day, with the Canada Labour Code, we deal with the issue, and as you know, that's not something we all necessarily embraced with great enthusiasm. I don't want the commission to be the second tier of government in Ottawa. That is properly with the municipalities.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, a facilitating tier is what I'm talking about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

This will have to be your last question.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Perhaps I could make just one response.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Yes, very quickly.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Nothing will replace leadership if you have good people who make that a hallmark. And I think we've seen that, particularly with this current chair and CEO, who, to my judgment, got kudos from all around.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I believe I'm sharing my time with Ms. Hoeppner.

My question is quite simple, Mr. Baird. I am not from Ottawa, but I believe that all Canadians have a vested interest in the national capital region and all of us want to see it protected. I know that the independent review was done on the national capital mandate. Can you tell the committee who was consulted on this process? Can you identify those, please?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We had a three-person panel that did, I think, a respectable job with respect to their recommendations. Before they issued their report, they worked with municipalities on both sides. They worked with a significant number of environmental initiatives. I think they also tried to look at who were the major stakeholders that they deal with, not just in the whole expanse of the region but in particular around the ceremonial route, whether it's with museums, the art galleries, or the culture community. Environmentalists obviously are especially concerned with both the greenbelt and with Gatineau Park. I think there's an annex in their report that lists a significant number of folks they listen to. I'm pleased to see a number of locals. I know Mr. Proulx, Mr. Bélanger, and Mr. Dewar were amongst those they spoke to. They spoke to tourism representatives, representatives of the business community, other federal stakeholders. I mean, there's obviously Public Works, obviously Parliament itself, and the various crowns on the ceremonial route.

So I think they did a pretty good job, generally speaking. As I said, I don't think anyone said they got everything they wanted, but I think it was a pretty positive expression of what people wanted to see from reform.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

Thanks very much for being here, Minister.

Since I've become a member of Parliament, two things have become very clear to me even though I don't represent an area in Ontario or in Ottawa. One is that this is certainly our home away from home as members of Parliament, so it's a place that we do treasure. The second thing that has become very clear to me is the beauty and I think really the awesomeness of this area and region. It's something that I've told many of my constituents about. I've told them that they need to get to the Ottawa region and see it, because it really is beautiful.

So I'm pleased to see that we're making these necessary changes. I'm also pleased to see that we're putting this effort into maintaining our national capital region.

My question has to do with funding, the change in mandate that has happened over the years, how that has affected the operating budget for the NCC, and why we've had to make increases to that budget. Could you expand on that a little?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think the biggest budgetary challenge has been the capital one. When we were in deficit times, I think the NCC became more efficient, which is good. We applaud that. We welcome that.

I think one area is that in the late 1980s, the last time we had a significant deficit--it was certainly much greater than it is now as a percentage of the economy--they got rid of their capital budget and then had to go cap in hand for everything they needed. As I mentioned in my opening comments, we changed that in 2007, giving them a predictable $10 million a year. I think that's important.

It doesn't get away from the fact that from time to time they're going to have to ask for special appropriations if there's something particularly significant that goes into the tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars. That won't go away, but this does give them a planning horizon to be able to seek renewal of the various stocks of real estate and buildings and, as well, the natural treasures. If you go to the Stony Swamp, they have things that assist visitor experiences. If you go to Gatineau Park, they have things that assist the visitor experience. I think those are important.

There was a real and genuine fear and concern that, for budgetary reasons, every opportunity they had to sell a scrap of land here or a parcel of land there, they wanted to do. In my honest opinion, probably not everything they did was with that motive, but certainly with the lack of a capital budget I think it was not an unreasonable concern. I think that undoubtedly it was done from time to time, so hopefully a more stable budget is something that will be welcomed.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

This is actually the first increase in the operating budget in how long?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It's certainly the first big increase in their budget since the late 1980s. I think it shows the commitment.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Absolutely.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think the fact is that Ottawa-Gatineau is a vibrant political area, the only area up to Montreal, the only area in the country, that has all four political parties represented. There has certainly been a confluence of interest in the NCC in the last Parliament and this Parliament, which, frankly, we hadn't seen in many generations. The fact is that in the previous Parliament we had the political minister for Quebec representing the Gatineau side and the political minister for Ontario representing the Ottawa side, and also we had Conservatives, Liberals, the NDP, and the Bloc all pushing the issue.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That would help, and I guess that would go to my next question as well.

Private members' bills have come forward from the different opposition parties. Can you tell us a little about how those bills have helped shape this legislation? I think this works together.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As for the idea of a private member's bill, obviously if you can get it passed that's generally considered the home run. Regrettably, I think, many private members' bills have become largely symbolic, at least the ones that are passed. I think the other motivation for members of Parliament--

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Not all of them.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes, hopefully not all of them, and I'll be voting for your private member's bill.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Others are obviously hoping to advance the debate and push the government to bring forward the legislation. Mr. Dewar brought forward two bills, Bill C-207 and Bill C-367, regarding governance and protection of Gatineau Park. They certainly informed our work in preparing the bill. I know that Mr. Proulx has been very vocal on this file, as have Mr. Nadeau, Mr. Bélanger, Mr. Poilievre, Mr. O'Connor, and others.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That is good news, and it's good news again for this committee, because I think we're doing work that is non-partisan, and this bill shows that and advances that kind of work.