Transport Committee on March 24th, 2009

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Can I just jump in? [Inaudible--Editor]...development, but even from the Port of Churchill, the Government of Manitoba is certainly pushing this as a potential economic development generator, because they have had, I think, the first Russian ship travelling from Russia right into Churchill, and the potential there is obviously huge. It also depends on the forecasts with respect to the amount of ice—that is, clear and open waterways--from climate change. It's certainly not likely to take longer. If anything, the studies seem to indicate it will be escalated, not longer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

It would probably be a great time to recommend an icebreaker for that part of the country to help the ships come through. My plug.

Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, my concern comes from the fact that you mentioned the Departments of the Environment, Natural Resources, Fisheries and Oceans, and Foreign Affairs. Who will be taking the lead on this bill? Who will be responsible for it? I see that six or seven departments, six or seven ministers, are involved, and nothing good ever comes of a situation like that. Usually, when too many people are involved, things get too complicated and communication stops. Who will be in charge, who will take the lead on this project?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

With respect to the legislation today, it is the Minister of Transport, and we don't propose to change that.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I agree. But who will enforce the regulations? Will it be your department, Environment, Natural Resources, Fisheries and Oceans, or Foreign Affairs? Several departments have a stake in this file.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Obviously our department would take the lead, but as on virtually every issue, we work constructively with other departments. The Prime Minister established a cabinet committee on environment and energy security, and that brings together a lot of the actors. Whether it's the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, the Minister of Transport, or the Minister of Northern Development, where all these issues can be tackled, I think we have good partnerships with our sister departments. This is a challenge, but it's no different, I think, from.... Virtually all ministers have two or three sister departments they work with in fulfilling their mandates. I think that's a good thing. We've got to break down the silos and work in a more coordinated fashion—also with the territorial governments or, in the case of Quebec's Arctic shore, with Quebec and the first nations.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

When there are several departments, there are more opportunities for people to say that we have to talk to another department, whether it be Foreign Affairs, Fisheries and Oceans, or Environment. That was my question. If the Department of Transport is in charge, I have no problem. But that must be the department that will answer all the questions.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The Minister of Transport and our department are where the act is parked.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

As regards international agreements, have we approached Russia, the United States, and other countries to discuss our limits?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No, we already have the existing authority to extend to 100 nautical miles. That has been the case since 1996. I'm in my fourth month as minister, so we're moving pretty aggressively to follow through on this commitment. Obviously we do work particularly with the United States. There is the circumpolar council, on which a lot of Canadians and representatives of various affected organizations work in a coordinated fashion. For example, the Minister of the Environment was recently involved in an international discussion with respect to the future of the polar bear. We have generally a pretty good working relationship with the other countries involved. It is not perfect, but that's why Canada can and should be a leader among those countries with respect to environmental legislation and enforcement.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Will our territorial security be looked after at sea and in the air?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Are you talking about passenger safety or about international security?

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I am talking about the security of the area when visitors come. Russia came into our territory at one stage. Will there be security, not for transportation traffic, but for people coming onto our territory?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That question would probably be better directed to the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

That is why I said earlier that we have to have someone in charge. If not, we will have to meet with all the ministers when we want to ask a question. If you are in charge, Mr. Minister, we will ask you the question, and we will want you to answer.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm in charge of the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act. If you want to talk about nuclear submarines of another military power, I wouldn't be equipped to answer that.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

That is no problem...

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

One of the things I learned very early on in my time as a minister, at least in that capacity, was to focus like a laser on those things for which you have responsibility, and then work with your colleagues on advancing the rest of the agenda. I have more than enough on my plate than to get into international military affairs and strategic studies.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I agree with you, but I want you to be in charge. If there are eight leaders, you know as well as I do that it does not work. In a government, there is only one leader.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Prime Minister Harper is the leader. I have no interest in challenging my premier, Dalton McGuinty.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

If there were three leaders of the Conservative government, it would not work; you have to have just one. It is the same thing in the waters of the Arctic.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Go ahead, Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister for being here.

My wife was at the Dempster Highway when John Diefenbaker announced the roads to resources program. It was then that Canadians first started to notice the north. Then it was forgotten for a while. It's great to see it back on the table again.

One of the challenges, though, was that as the area was opened up, those who went in to do oil drilling and what not in the Eagle Plains area in the Yukon did not necessarily follow good environmental practices. There were oil drums all over the tundra, and other things like that. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that the Conservative government came in and spent millions of dollars cleaning it up.

I am really glad to hear, Mr. Minister, that we are focusing on the environment and that as we develop the north and encourage that development and our sovereignty there, we are making sure we put environmental protection at the forefront. That's really good news.

One of the questions I have relates to the size of the area. It's a big area. I recall flying from Herschel Island to Old Crow in the Yukon, flying over a river where the Americans had come across into the Yukon and were mining on a creek. They weren't discovered for two years because there weren't proper patrols. Mr. Roussel mentioned there were going to be 100 people and airplanes patrolling, but it's a big area.

Can you give us an idea of what you think the future of that will be?

[Victor Santos-Pedro]

I can't easily. Speaking directly to the question, it is difficult for us to talk about something that is happening on land. We certainly have the resources to be aware of all the ships that come into the Arctic waters, and we respond. We have officers trained in what is called port state control, and we can board those vessels. We are aware of where the vessels are.

If it is something on land, then there are other provisions, whether it be Rangers or aerial surveillance that may have spotted that kind of activity. Normally, any activity in the Arctic is noticed in one way or another.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I should know my history a little better, but I'm curious: when the Dominion of Canada was established and we defined out southern boundaries with the United States, how did we define our northern boundary? Was it just the 100 miles off the shore, or was there actually a longitude that we followed to define our northern boundaries?