Evidence of meeting #28 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Doug Dobrowolski  President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities
Joe Masi  Executive Director, Association of Manitoba Municipalities
Gilles Vaillancourt  Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities
Bernard Généreux  President, Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités

12:10 p.m.

Bernard Généreux President, Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités

Good afternoon, gentlemen, Mr. Vaillancourt.

While I won't reiterate what Mr. Vaillancourt has said, I will say it is apparent that the fears expressed by the Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités at its last appearance unfortunately seem to have materialized.

With only a few weeks left until winter, when infrastructure work will be forced to stop, the municipalities are again, and still, having to deal with this famous deadline, which is becoming increasingly worrisome in terms of actual capacity to complete the projects announced.

I don't want to reiterate the figures given by Mr. Vaillancourt, but we note that fewer than 40% of the projects undertaken by the municipalities by September 16 had been completed. You will understand that concerns are obviously growing as time passes.

Circumstances are mounting up to hinder the capacity of the thousand members of the FQM to complete their projects. It almost amounts to subjecting the municipalities to mental cruelty, given that projects have been recognized and funding for them confirmed by agreements. We are increasingly facing the anxiety of the period imposed by the program ending, which will probably mean that hundreds of projects all across Quebec will not be completed, for all sorts of reasons. It may be a question of delays associated with completing these various projects, or authorizations that are needed from various departments, for example the ministère de l'Environnement, or from the Commission de la protection du territoire agricole, in the case of projects that affect those areas.

In the present overheated situation, where bids are often considerably higher than initial estimates, there are all sorts of situations that mean that in many cases municipalities are unfortunately having to conclude that it is impossible to complete these projects. That observation is also shared by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, which has reached the same conclusions itself.

At present, municipalities are still calling for tenders. It is easy to understand how some bidders, given this inexplicable and unjustifiable deadline, are not risking bidding, given the risk of a major penalty that some of them are facing. This means that the number of bids being submitted is low.

There is also the problem with materials, which is becoming a matter of growing concern. The overheating observed last spring has now hit head-on. Delivery delays, which have become common because materials are increasingly rare, are causing major stress and interfering with the capacity to complete projects.

In the circumstances, you will understand that the resolution passed by the Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités asking that this deadline be pushed back, which was adopted at the annual general meeting held at the end of December, is entirely appropriate.

We seem to be hearing that the economic crisis is behind us. When we see the difficulties in many of the regions and places in Quebec, we understand that the economic recovery has not always been on time. We still need this infrastructure program to stimulate the economy. The federal governments wants to make us believe the recession has ended. That is what it sees when it puts on its rose-coloured glasses, but we have to step back a bit.

Denis Lebel was also present for the opening presentation by the Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités. He took good note of the unanimous request by the members at the convention to postpone the deadline. Mr. Lebel also committed himself at the end of September to conveying the message stated very clearly by the Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités to his government, to lift the constraints associated with this program.

What we are asking, in fact, is that for all the projects that have been announced, 100% of the money announced be allowed to be spent beyond this famous deadline. Objectively, there is no justification for the deadline. When an agreement is submitted to a municipality and signed by the government, that money itself is set aside for the project. What would be the problem if the project were completed within a reasonable and acceptable time, rather than rushing projects through and having the quality risk being jeopardized? Impose requirements for completing these projects as soon as possible after the deadline, certainly. Look, we have a winter to get through here at the end of this program, and that winter is a major obstacle to being able to complete these projects.

More specifically, in my own municipality, I recently received an agreement signed for a recreation centre. It is a $1.5 million project. You may say that's not much, but it's important to my community. I received the agreement on October 5, 2010, with the requirement that the project be completed by March 31. In objective terms, how do you expect me to start the process for borrowing and for the plans and specifications, to do the work in the winter, and have it all completed by March 31? What we're asking is that the money committed under the agreements be disbursed in full. It is unacceptable to leave amounts like that on the table. Several hundred million dollars could expire because of this obstinate insistence on a deadline.

The list of municipalities facing problems completing these projects might go on at quite some length. The 40% of projects authorized to date alone illustrates the gap we still have to close between projects undertaken and March 31. This burden absolutely has to be lifted as soon as possible.

Thank you for your attention.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Coderre.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Généreux and Mr. Vaillancourt.

I have had the pleasure and the privilege of attending the conventions of both the Union of Quebec Municipalities and the Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités, and to begin, the first thing we should say is that you are asking not for charity but for flexibility. You are the government that is closest to the people. You know that you have a direct influence on people's quality of life. I think it is completely unacceptable to see a federal government close down this way and even, when questions are asked in the House, give the impression that Quebec is on one side and everything is fine elsewhere, as if we were whiners in Quebec, when that is not the case at all. The ministers are perfectly happy, however, to go to the inauguration ceremonies to cut the ribbons or to go and see you.

My first question is for Mr. Généreux, and perhaps Mr. Vaillancourt as well. The ministers are now talking about finding a fair and reasonable solution. That means a lot of things. Do you have any follow-up from the meeting with Mr. Lebel? Were you ultimately told that the main fault lay with the administrative labyrinth and bureaucracy, particularly at level of the Government of Canada? Have you followed up with the former mayor of Roberval, who should understand how a municipality operates, given that it is next to Saint-Félicien?

12:20 p.m.

Bernard Généreux President, Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités

So far, we have had no news from Mr. Lebel regarding his commitment.

In fact, Mr. Coderre, you were present for the opening of the convention. Mr. Lebel even came forward on the stage to accept, in front of the assembly, the symbol that I displayed on a little sticky note—sticky notes are all the rage in Quebec—reminding him that a specific message was being sent for him. I think that for Mr. Lebel, appearing on stage and accepting that note amounted to saying he was going to advocate for our request to his government.

As we speak, we have had no news about this commitment. It is extremely important that a signal be given now. The countdown that determines the actual ability to initiate and complete the projects has started. We are asking for no less than 100% of the funds that were announced and signed for in the agreements involving the municipalities. The municipalities have done their job in preparing for these projects, which have been analyzed by the officials and authorized by the government. Now they have to be done.

The question is not just of the capacity to support economic development in our communities, but also the very word of the government, which committed to making money available to communities and municipalities to carry out infrastructure projects that are necessary to keep up our towns.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

So today, October 21, at 12:25, there has still be no news from Mr. Lebel.

Mr. Vaillancourt, what do you think?

12:25 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

First, I have to say that Mr. Lebel, whom I did not necessarily meet at a convention, but at another meeting, seemed to be very open. Quite recently, I met with Mr. Strahl, who said he was genuinely looking for a solution based on fairness.

We know what happened in Quebec: the negotiations were not between the municipalities and the federal government, as the law requires, but between the provincial government and the federal government. We did not receive the authorizations and we were not informed about the rules of the program until the end of January this year, in some cases. We can't do the impossible.

Trying to be fair raises a question. While 97% or 98% of the provinces have been able to meet the deadline, there is only one exception: Quebec. The reasons are easy to understand, and you know what they are. Why should Quebec municipalities have to make a larger contribution to their government's economic recovery, through property taxes? That would be very unfair.

So give us different deadlines, and make sure we are able to meet them. I reiterate that if the municipalities in Canada had not had projects, the recovery plan would probably have been a big failure. There have to be people who have infrastructure projects. Municipal government is always the one that is closest to the people and is, in fact, most essential in their everyday lives. There is no ill will. Quebec municipalities haven't wasted their time, but they aren't capable of making up the time that was wasted. They are here before you today to avoid being penalized, and to avoid property taxes becoming too high for Quebec taxpayers and Canadian taxpayers in other provinces to bear.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

In any event, gentlemen, rest assured that the Liberal Party of Canada is totally in favour of this extension. When an agreement is signed, I don't see why it couldn't go past the deadlines, given that the projects have been begun.

Does the Canadian government recognize that it is unfortunately to blame in part, since time was spent signing the agreements?

12:25 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

The people in the Government of Canada would probably tell me that the negotiations with the Government of Quebec were very lengthy, while the people in the Government of Quebec would tell me that there were very lengthy negotiations with the Government of Canada.

Apart from that, we are taxpayers...

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

In any event, it's the date when it was signed.

12:25 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

We are Canadian citizens who pay our taxes. We are asking not to have to make a municipal contribution greater than what the partners in the other cities and provinces had to contribute. If they were able to solve all their problems within the time limits proposed, that's fine. I applaud the cities and governments that were able to make agreements and take action faster. It has to be acknowledged, however, that this was not the case in Quebec. I'm not here to point fingers. I can only reiterate: Mr. Strahl has shown openness very recently and is looking for a solution.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

In any event, we have a good definition of what is fair and reasonable.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Le président Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Guimond, over to you.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Vaillancourt and Mr. Bélanger. I would also like to thank the only real Bernard Généreux I know. He is the mayor of Saint-Prime, that the magnificent Ticouapé River flows through. His member of Parliament is Denis Lebel. I thank you for reminding us of that anecdote about the attendance of Mr. Lebel, who committed himself. Committing is one thing, honouring commitments is another.

Today, the federal government is going to have to act in good faith. Since the opening of Parliament on September 20, I have questioned the government about this two or three times a week. In addition to what you have already said, Mr. Vaillancourt, we might talk about bids that have been put in at totally unreasonable prices. In my riding, a little municipality by the name of Saint-Pierre-de-l'Île-d'Orléans wants a recreation centre like the one Mr. Généreux was talking about. The cost had been estimated at about $600,000. The lowest bid put in came to $1.4 million. Some contractors are too overloaded to bid, but as well, the amounts of the bids submitted are unreasonable.

I would like to go back to your testimony, Mr. Vaillancourt. You referred to 80 projects, in the even that the deadline was not pushed back. That represents a hundred million dollars. Do those figures relate to municipalities as a whole, or just to your union? In the latter case, I would like to know what the situation is for the FQM.

12:30 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

That applies to the Union of Quebec Municipalities.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Is it the same thing for you, Mr. Généreux? Mr. Vaillancourt referred to 80 projects that represent about $100 million.

12:30 p.m.

Bernard Généreux President, Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités

The figures we're using to illustrate the delay are compiled by the ministère des Affaires municipales, des Régions et de l'Occupation du territoire. They probably include both municipalities that are members of our association and members of the UQM. However, we don't have an exhaustive, municipality by municipality list, because the information is not always available. I did a little survey around where I am. In the riding of Roberval alone, at least $5 or $10 million is currently in jeopardy for certain projects. Those figures affect five or six municipalities. Across Quebec, you can imagine the extent of the disaster we are expecting.

Once again, I would say that this program is a good illustration of the desire to participate in upgrading our infrastructure. The extent to which Quebec and even Canada needed to catch up, in terms of infrastructure, probably extends beyond the period of this program. You may say that this is another discussion, but the fact that everybody was asked to complete the projects within the same very tight deadline is creating overheating and an explosion in costs. This explains in large part the lack of capacity to complete projects that the municipalities are facing.

On that point, we have many examples. In my own municipality, the cost of a project has risen by 53% over projections. That is unacceptable. These situations are occurring just as much in Roberval and in Saint-Félicien or Dolbeau. We are all collectively having to deal with this problem, which came out of thin air. At the start of the program, we asked that we be given more time, to avoid overheating in the sector, but we were told the situation was in hand. Today, we see that not much is in hand. In the worst case scenario, we are going to lose important infrastructure projects, projects that are necessary.

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Vaillancourt, are you doing...

12:35 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

If I may, I'm going to give a supplementary answer.

The $100 million in projects comes from a survey we did of our municipalities and it doesn't take into account what I call missed initiatives. A number of municipalities decided not to submit projects, because they felt completely unable to meet the deadline.

That amount represents projects the municipalities hoped to complete, but that can't be completed by the deadline because of unforseen obstacles to completion.

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

The Bloc has been informed that if the deadline is not pushed back, the municipalities of Quebec are going to lose about $200 million in projects. That's the figure we have been given.

12:35 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

I'm not questioning it, I'm just saying that the $100 million figure we are giving comes from a survey of municipalities that are members of the Union of Municipalities.

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Vaillancourt, does you union agree with what Mr. Généreux said, what they are asking the federal government for, flexibility?

I would note in passing that the Association of Manitoba Municipalities, whose representatives testified before you, is asking the federal government for flexibility, although the situation isn't the same. It's much less disastrous that what is happening in Quebec. So they are expecting that the deadline for all projects that were approved to be pushed back, to avoid having the projects fall off a cliff.

12:35 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

Mr. Guimond, when I came here last year and I testified before this committee, I said I understood there had to be a deadline in the case of a recovery plan. It has to get started, there has to be a pretty speedy beginning. However, when it comes to finishing the work, I said last year that it would be impossible for the municipalities of Quebec to agree to this completely and to do what was being done elsewhere, because we got the authorizations, the program criteria, later.

Is it $100 million or $200 million? It doesn't matter. In my opinion, the municipal taxpayers of Canada should not be penalized because there were delays in a province that cannot, in general, be attributed to the municipality. We should therefore not have to pay more municipal taxes than other municipalities under a national economic recovery plan.

The answer is very simple: the government simply has to extend the deadline and allow the ones that initiated the process in good faith, who have completed all the main steps, to receive the assistance on the same basis as all the other citizens of Canada.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Merci.

Mr. Bevington.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Vaillancourt, Mr. Bélanger, and our witness by video conference, which I think is a very good idea.

I'm interested in how this came about in terms of the federal-provincial negotiations only being completed in January of 2010. Was that it?

12:35 p.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

I can't tell you much about that, because we were not part of the negotiating team. Whether it's one government or the other that wanted to have things different, I don't know. One thing I know for sure is that we only got the green light at the end of January.