Transport Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

You have to look at the bill.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I understand, but I am looking.

[An hon. member]

We are working on the English version. The word “include”....

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It should be “includes, amongst others”. You don't have the right word.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

It should be “amongst others”.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I think the problem actually lies with the English, not with the French. “Library materials” in English is different from “documents de bibliothèque”. “Library materials” in English opens up too broad a definition. It could include anything that's used in a library. The English version needs to be brought down, whereas the French version, which speaks to the “documents de bibliothèque”, clearly identifies it with the product of a library.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

So are you proposing an amendment to the English version of the amendment?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I'd say that I would support this amendment, and I trust that the French language version would remain the same.

[Merv Tweed, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

One of the concerns I had, even as I was proposing this, was the definition of “library materials”. I think what the English is trying to do is actually define what it is. If you say “library materials”, it could be a chair, if it's in a library.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

Yes, Monsieur Guimond.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Mr. Jean said that I was perfectly bilingual, but I do not make that claim. However, I speak Canada's other official language better than he does. It is simply an observation, I am not trying to insult him.

In my opinion, the word “means” corresponds to “signifie quelque chose” in French, especially grants.

We are working on the English version, so do not agonize over the French version. The amendment has to do with the English version. The word “means” is used to refer to books, magazines, records, CDs, CD-ROMs. Why would you not say:

“'library materials'” means, amongst others”.

That way, it would not be restrictive or limiting. If you have some sort of electronic medium that is not a book, a magazine, a record, a CD or a CD-ROM, libraries will not be able to take advantage of the reduced rate, as Mr. Tweed's bill purports to achieve.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

Does that mean you're suggesting that the English be amended to say, “means, amongst other things”?

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Forgive me, I did not understand.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

You are proposing an amendment to the English version, instead of what there is now:

“'library materials' means, amongst other things”.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Yes, “amongst other things, books, magazines, records”.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

Okay.

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

The difficulty with that is that, again, as the proponent, Mr. Tweed, said in this case, library materials means, amongst other things...what you're allowing is chairs to be shipped, or other things like that. The difficulty long term for this legislation is that we want to make sure the cost to Canada Post is in line with what they're actually sending, so that it's not abused by people who would abuse it. We want to make sure it's a long-term program, and if the list is not restrictive, it allows people to send or to expect to send things through the post that they're not entitled to send.

I understand what Monsieur Guimond is trying to avoid. It's exactly why we're here today, to make sure we can modernize it. I'm wondering if maybe, instead of “means, amongst other things”, we could have some direction as far as similarity of other things. For instance, “'library materials' means books, magazines, records, CDs, audiocassettes, CD-ROMs, videocassettes”, etc., “and other similar materials” or “other similar library materials”.

The difficulty is we're trying to tighten the list so that it's not abused, and if we allow it to be open-ended...I mean, frankly, I don't see how the program can continue. That's the difficulty.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

You're saying amend it, and instead of saying, “and other audio-visual”, you'd say, “and other similar library materials”.

That sounds reasonable to me.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

My proposal would actually make it restrictive, but I think it's a workable compromise.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John McCallum]

Bonnie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I'd like to ask the member what the problem was with the original definition. I think it's quite definitive. It puts parameters; it limits it; it describes “library materials” to include the following: “books, magazines, records, CDs, CD-ROMs, audiocassettes, videocassettes...and other audio-visual materials”.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Because that “includes”, Ms. Crombie. It doesn't mean it includes, which means it's including the subset of 5% of the total, or 1% of the total, or 99% of the total. You don't know what it includes.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So why don't you say “defined as”?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That's why we're saying “means”; “'library materials' means books, magazines”--