Transport Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Crichton, first I congratulate you for accepting responsibility to manage noise at the airports where you have controllers.

I don't know what solution you introduced in Vancouver, but would you like to come to Saint-Hubert and look at our problem and solve it? I invite you to come to Saint-Hubert. Come and see what kind of solution you can provide because the Department of Transport doesn't want to do anything. What solution did you introduce in Vancouver that could apply to Saint-Hubert?

[John Crichton]

Well, I think you are looking at two completely different problems.

As I understand it, the issue at Saint Hubert is a high-density training operation, and perhaps the community has grown up around the airport. But I think that's just something that has to be worked out between the airport and the training schools, somehow or other.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Pardon me for interrupting you, but that's currently being settled in court. It's in the justice system. There will be a trial in mid-January, and the judge has six months to render his decision. In the meantime, of course, nothing will be done and citizens will suffer from the noise.

[John Crichton]

I believe we are a defendant in that lawsuit as well. So we're being sued along with them.

I guess the issue is that Nav Canada, as the air navigation service provider and the air traffic control provider, has a very narrow focus on safety and efficiency. We're there to serve the airlines and the airports. We get caught in the middle in some of these things, but we have to leave it to other people, who will make the policy decisions, and then we will conform to those. But it is very difficult for us to be the people who initiate these types of changes because quite frankly we don't have any jurisdiction to do it.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am hiding back here.

I have to say welcome to all of you here. I'm pleased to have you here.

I can't say this has been the biggest issue in the Northwest Territories, but it strikes me that it must be for you in the urban areas, with these very large airports.

I'm curious about your procedures. In Vancouver, when you initiated changes, was there an environmental effects department within the Vancouver airport structure for you to work with in looking at route changes and at the impacts for the surrounding areas? Obviously, there is some authority that lies here.

You've indicated that you made these changes and then were surprised by the results, so the people who were in charge of noise management obviously didn't come into your decision-making.

[John Crichton]

As I think I indicated, you have to understand that the changes we made in Vancouver were not in the immediate area of the airport. They were quite a bit further back, and they were really in the transition zone from the en route airspace to the approach phase for Vancouver. So we're talking--

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Doesn't the airport management authority deal with airplanes that are coming into its airport over a certain distance away?

[John Crichton]

As we indicated, up to 10 nautical miles, or 19 kilometres, is usually the area where the airports will look into this. And the changes we've made, quite frankly, we've made in many locations over the years and they've never caused a problem. As I indicated, we were quite surprised about the feedback we got on that, and we've taken it under advisement. There is always a first time for something, so in the future we'll do a better job the next time it comes to that. We'll consult.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Don't you think this is an airport authority issue, then? Don't you consider that they should be part of this process that you're going through?

If the Department of Transport is saying these issues lie with the airport, and you're saying that because you're obviously a little further away these issues don't lie with the airport authority, who actually then sets the standards? Do we have anybody in charge?

[John Crichton]

What we're indicating is that because this was the first time we ran into this type of situation in that category of airspace, we've made it a corporate undertaking. I'll repeat here tonight for the record that in the future when we have those types of changes that we're contemplating, we will consult with the local communities.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Don't you see your role as taking direction from Transport Canada on this?

[John Crichton]

I really think, given the nature of these types of changes, it wouldn't be necessary. And I don't think the objective evidence indicates that there's a real issue.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

But if there is not a real issue here, maybe in the future there will be a real issue somewhere else. And don't you think that Transport Canada has some degree of responsibility here?

[John Crichton]

I'm just giving you my opinion. These types of changes are usually non-controversial.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, Transport Canada says on its website that their “...concerns about aircraft noise are best addressed to the management of the airport where an aircraft is either landing or taking off....”

That's your opinion. That's where you feel the responsibility for the production of noise from aircraft is located. Yet we see here that obviously Nav Canada thinks it has a role in the abatement of noise or dealing with noise pollution issues. So where does it lie?

[Martin Eley]

I think it's fair to say that until recent times, beyond that 10-mile limit, which doesn't necessarily have a deep scientific basis, typically there were not issues because the aircraft were at sufficient altitude that the noise hadn't been an issue. That may be part of what's changing, with increased sensitivity. And the recent experience of Nav Canada has shown us that.

But today I don't think we have anything in place to deal with the noise beyond those airport responsibility limits.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

So Transport Canada, which has the ultimate responsibility for the management of aircraft, airports, Nav Canada--the whole works--should not ultimately hold the responsibility here to ensure that this works together?

[Martin Eley]

I would like to say that I don't believe we've identified the need to regulate or control that beyond what we already do with the airports.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

But that's like reactive policy, isn't it? You haven't identified a situation yet where you need to use the policy, so therefore let's not have a policy?

[Martin Eley]

But the experience helps to drive policy, so that's something that I think we need to take a look at. But I can't tell you we're about to put something into place, because there are no plans, to my knowledge.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I'm just trying to work out the authority structures here, because it seems there needs to be some clarity here on those.

[Martin Eley]

The other part of our responsibility clearly is not to put regulation in place without need. One of the things we have to justify through Treasury Board is to make sure when we put regulations in place that there is a need. So that's the trade-off.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, I wish you would use that with aviation security now. That would make me happy.