Transport Committee on April 11th, 2017

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Yes.

[Larry Lachance]

As soon as Nav Canada was created, we adopted a safety management system. I would say we were pioneers in the field, as far as industry collaboration and expertise-sharing were concerned. I think that had tremendous benefits. As I said in my opening remarks, one of our strengths was to really build our entire safety management strategy around our employees.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do you think the public inquiry into aviation safety called for by Judge Moshansky is warranted in the current landscape?

[Larry Lachance]

Taking into account current safety performance, I can't comment on the merits of such an inquiry from Nav Canada's standpoint.

As far as Canada and aviation, in general, are concerned, however, I would stress the importance of continuing to promote the vast body of SMS expertise of all stakeholder groups.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

For my last question, I will turn once again to the Transport Canada officials.

Last week, Judge Moshansky expressed concerns over the lack of regulatory oversight.

How do you respond to those concerns?

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, as my colleagues and I alluded to previously, there is a very strong degree of regulatory oversight. A significant number of direct oversight activities take place, and we track all of the other interventions that take place on services. This contributes to any risk profile of an industry member. There is very active oversight. There is very strong compliance, and we have suspended the certificates of operators who have demonstrated an inability or unwillingness to comply with the requirements.

We believe that we have a very strong oversight system, which is not to say that constant improvement is not required. We need to adjust as we learn more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm going to split my time a couple of different ways. I believe our colleague, Mr. Tootoo, wants to ask a quick question, and I'll ask a quick question and then share the rest of my time with Mr. Fraser.

Mr. Tootoo.

[Hunter Tootoo, Independent, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie, and thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for the department. In your opening comments, you mentioned taking steps to address flight crew fatigue. I'm sure you're aware of, and indeed mentioned, the dual system, looking at the uniqueness of the circumstances in which airlines fly. As you can imagine, the third coast, up north, is very vast. I know the commercial airlines and cargo providers that fly up there have raised concerns about the rigidity of crew times.

I just want to confirm what I've heard from departmental officials, that there is a willingness to look at it, and that if a company can develop its own fatigue management system that satisfies Transport Canada, they will not be held directly to the letter of the new regulations that are being looked at.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, yes, that is the approach the department is taking and that we hope is going to be coming out in the Canada Gazette, part I, fairly shortly. In that case, we will be looking at how we can not only work with companies but also help to develop the appropriate guidelines, so that operators with smaller operations can gather together in associations to come up with some ideas and options. This would enable them to address the science and fatigue issues while looking at their particular operational requirements.

We recognize the particular challenges of the north, and we're very prepared to work with that.

I should also note that the implementation time period for the smaller operators will be on a more phased approach.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have a question for Ms. Kinney. You believe that Transport Canada is applying strong oversight of safety management systems, but we hear from the Transportation Safety Board that it's on their watch-list, and that they are concerned that oversight and interventions aren't always managing to intercept and deal with unsafe practices.

How close are you to eliminating this watch-list item?

[Laureen Kinney]

That's a very good question, Madam Chair.

I won't speak for the Transportation Safety Board, but we have been working very closely with them. The chair and the board have raised the issue of timeliness and how quickly Transport Canada can move on some of these cases.

I would refer you, in particular, to the oversight advisory board that has been implemented. Any inspector or any region that has a problem with a non-compliant operator, where there is a concern about a major safety issue, can bring that to a board that brings together the national members, the specialists, and our legal advisors. Everyone comes together to look at whether the company is safe enough to continue to operate with restrictions and oversight, whether the board needs to take action today, and what kind of action should be taken.

That is in place now and has had great success in the last year and a half. It would be our hope that it will address much of the concern in that regard for the Transportation Safety Board.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Very good.

I'll turn the rest of the time over to Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Excellent. I'll try to cut to the chase.

Ms. Kinney, in our first meeting, we heard witnesses give testimony saying that cuts made to Transport Canada have impacted aviation safety. In particular, I note that in 2008-09, the civil aviation flying program had $7.9 million and 42 planes were owned. This came down to 27 planes and a budget of $6 million by 2011-12, and then again, by 2014-15, it was down to 14 planes and the budget was just in excess of $3 million. Have you seen cuts like this to Transport Canada before, and have those impacted Transport Canada's ability to help maintain or improve aviation safety in our country?

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, let me again say that throughout the period of the budget shortfalls, the priority was put on aviation safety and the rest of our safety oversight programs. We did not compromise those through that period.

In terms of the actual provision of flying hours for our pilot inspectors, we have contractual obligations allowing them to maintain their licences and an MOU with regard to how we implement that. We have maintained the consistency of those requirements. The amount of flying has certainly been reduced considerably as we've moved towards a more modern system, in which a number of our pilot inspectors now use only a simulator. Many more of them are not flying. Many are still flying, but we are definitely reducing that program. It is within the contractual requirements, and we believe it does not have any effect on aviation safety.

We have continued to focus on updating our requirements with regard to what an inspector needs to perform their duties, what specific training they require, whether it be specialty training or flying in a King Air. As we've updated those requirements, we've formalized them; we've published them; we ensure that they are maintained, and we are even tracking those much more carefully.

We believe we are fully meeting our safety requirements in that area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Fraser, I'm sorry, but the time is up.

Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Canada's Parliament.

First of all, I want to pay my respects to all the people who work in your area, because as a pilot myself, I really appreciate the relationship that we have, but don't be afraid—I don't pilot shuttles. I leave that to the minister. I am a pilot of a power glider, which is the base of the pyramids in the aviation sector.

I want to talk about what my colleague raised a few minutes ago, about the overbooking of airplanes. What we saw yesterday all around the world with the United Airlines incident raised the issue of overbooking. How can we let businesses sell things they don't own?

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, again, Minister Garneau has certainly made this a serious concern. As he announced and reminded the public, he is planning to come forward with some options to address these areas in the near future. I'm not really in a position to give good details on that. It's not my area, so I'll defer on that.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I appreciate it and the fact that you are careful. I do recognize that. This is your job and you're doing it quite well, but my point is, do we have any studies on this issue?

It's an issue around the world, is it not?

It's a global issue. Why will we table a special area here in Canada instead of addressing the issue from a global point of view?

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, that's a very good question. I'm not aware of what may be going on at the International Civil Aviation Organization in this regard. There may be activities going on in this regard. Facilitation in air travel is a broad topic, so it's something I can certainly take back.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

This gives me a chance to speak about another issue linked to that, which is air rage. Before getting involved in politics, I was a journalist, and 15 years ago I did a report on the air rage effect. It looks as though it's still there, but it's not as big as it was before. Is that right?

[Laureen Kinney]

I'll give just a general answer, and then my colleague may want to add more specifics. In general I think this problem has been reduced, in that it is taken very seriously by the air carriers and Transport Canada. We have ways to support the air carriers in managing these problems, and there is a good response from police organizations, and so on, and charges are laid. Certainly from my perspective, the improvement is there.

Denis, I don't know if you had anything. No.

I think it's fair to say that it's much improved now that attention is being paid and processes are in place.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You're talking about your impression. Do you have any data on that?

[Laureen Kinney]

I would have to see what we have in terms of disruptive passengers. I'm not sure.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

The mere fact that you haven't done any specific research is evidence that it does, in fact, happen less, and I think everyone recognizes that. I should, however, point out that flying certainly isn't an easy way to travel, with everyone having to go through security, sometimes spending hours in line.

That brings me to my third point. We have seen appalling situations, particularly in Montreal, with people having to wait two, three, or four hours, sometimes even longer, just to go through security. That kind of thing is totally unacceptable and has no place in a highly developed and modern country like ours.

Why is Montreal, in particular, having such an issue with excessive waits and congestion?