Transport Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Sandra McCardell]

Certainly we have our work cut out for us as we proceed forward. I think maybe what is going to be the most important tool for us to get real satisfaction, justice and accountability, as the ministers referred to earlier, which we've all been seeking for families, is really going to be the reparations negotiations. This is the best way we have under the international legal system to address a number of areas that I think are critical for the families and for Canadians in general.

Reparations aren't just about compensation. It's an opportunity for us to negotiate with Iran for a full and detailed accounting of what happened, to get a public acknowledgement of wrongdoing and to aim for an official public apology, as well as assurances of non-repetition, which means that the circumstances are in place and conditions have changed so this doesn't happen again.

That's all part of what we're working on with the coordination group—to achieve that through that negotiation process. I think that's really going to be the best way we can aim to get justice and accountability for families.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. McCardell, Mr. Brosseau and Mr. Soroka.

We're now going to move on to the Liberals, with Mr. Ehsassi.

Mr. Ehsassi, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We heard from the two ministers that we are very much committed to holding Iran to account. One of them did actually say that every option remains on the table.

Ms. McCardell, could you kindly explain to us what those options are?

[Sandra McCardell]

There are a number of options. I just referred to the reparations negotiations and how we intend to use that in co-operation with those other four grieving countries to move forward and press Iran to give the answers to ensure this doesn't happen again, as well as compensation. That's the most important avenue, longer-term, to achieve our objectives through international law.

As Minister Garneau referred to, we have not hesitated at every opportunity in multilateral forums and international conferences to raise the importance of PS752 and to use those venues to press Iran to do more to provide answers for families.

Minister Garneau referred to the G7. That was just last week. In March, we did a joint statement with Sweden, the U.K. and Ukraine at the Human Rights Council, where we exactly pressed Iran to meet its obligations and to address the concerns of families. We have that avenue as well, and we will continue to work very closely with that coordination group going forward.

There are a number of areas we're looking at, in addition to the preventive measures that we've been talking about through safer skies and the work on annex 13.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

Moving to the issue of compensation, it's well settled within international law that the level of compensation be just and fair. We know that the Iranians did put an offer on the table that was entirely inadequate.

Ms. McCardell, could you kindly address that issue?

[Sandra McCardell]

First of all, I would offer my agreement with your assessment that it is an inadequate figure.

There will be a process through negotiations. Our legal subcommittee of that coordination group has already put together a common negotiation position, so that we can work together to achieve a package for families, both on the answers and the financial side, which will be what they deserve. Certainly, nothing is going to compensate for the loss of their loved ones. I think we all fully recognize that.

In terms of how that's going to go forward, obviously there are some precedents in other tragedies where states have paid compensation—a few are highlighted in Mr. Goodale's report—which give a certain kind of parallel where a plane was downed.

All of that will be taken into consideration by the legal teams, both in Canada and those of the other countries we're working with. More broadly speaking, this work is under way and obviously our teams won't be able to share too many details as this is an ongoing negotiation.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Lalani, I am wondering if you could also address the issue of all options being on the table. Are there other international venues where we could pursue Iran and hold it to account?

[Arif Lalani, Director General, International Organizations Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Certainly. Thank you.

As the minister said, and as Sandra has said, we are prepared to pursue all options as we pursue the negotiations. I think those options are at the UN, where we continue to raise the matter at the UN Human Rights Council, and also to introduce language in a resolution on Iran at the General Assembly. We have taken every opportunity at ICAO to raise the issue. I think the Minister of Transport has spoken at every single council meeting since this tragedy occurred.

We'll continue to do that in coordination with the other countries that are part of the process and mindful of our ultimate objective, which is these negotiations, where we hope to get justice and to get information and accountability.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Lalani, I am wondering if you could possibly address the issue of the International Court of Justice. Is that an option?

[Arif Lalani]

That's not my area. I might turn to my colleague Sandra on that, but I think there are very specific criteria for going to the International Court of Justice. I'm not sure we are at that moment yet, but I will turn to Sandra for that.

[Sandra McCardell]

Mr. Chair, we brought you a number of witnesses today, so there's a rich group of us to draw from.

I'll just say that the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice is not automatic. There are a number of steps we need to follow before we can get there.

The first part of that is to engage in the negotiations I've described—and good-faith negotiations. We have to show a genuine willingness and co-operation with our CG partners to engage Iran and to negotiate for an outcome that is suitable, acceptable and appropriate for families.

After that, we need to engage a decision-maker, which may be the ICAO Council or another form of arbitration, for a view on those negotiations. Only then, if that's not satisfactory, can we proceed to the ICJ.

There are a series of steps under international law that need to be followed before we can get to the International Court of Justice. There have been instances before where that process hasn't been followed and the court, quite frankly, has rejected outright to hear the case.

I will just underline that we are going to follow those processes. The legal teams across all five countries are highly engaged on this, and I know they will not hesitate to move forward to the ICJ if those good-faith reparations negotiations don't achieve a satisfactory result.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. McCardell, and thank you, Mr. Ehsassi.

We're now going to move on to the Bloc.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

My question is for Mr. Szwarc.

In fact, our understanding is that, during the discussions between the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Iran, there was a willingness on Iran's part to say that it was important for them to restore consular relations with Canada.

Do you think it's appropriate for Iran to seek concessions or to make demands when victims and people here want answers?

If we give in to that approach, aren't we signalling that we're rewarding the perpetrators of attacks?

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with that. I'd like to hear more from you on circumstances and context.

How do you think we can manage that kind of situation?

[Brian Szwarc]

I'll speak to the consular aspects of that question, and I'll ask my colleague Sandra to maybe supplement that with any other comments regarding the broader issue.

In terms of consular assistance, we do not have an embassy there. We do have a protecting power. We work very closely with the Italian embassy, which was quite instrumental in the early days in providing consular assistance to Canadians. Through the Italians, and through our standing rapid deployment team that was deployed to Iran, we engaged the Iranians to advocate for the interests of the family members, in particular in relation to their wishes in terms of burial or repatriation. We did advocacy on behalf of them, which we feel was instrumental in having the wishes of the families respected.

At this point, I will maybe transit over to Sandra to answer the rest of the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have time for a quick one.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I think Mr. Szwarc was going to let Ms. McCardell complete the answer.

I'm happy to listen, Ms. McCardell.

[Sandra McCardell]

I just wanted to add to Mr. Szwarc's answer and say that, even in difficult circumstances between two countries, we don't want citizens to be harmed. That's why there are protective powers among all countries. For example, Italy represents Canada in Iran, and Switzerland represents Iran in Canada. That's how we manage to meet the everyday needs of the citizens of each country through consular services.

Apart from that, we don't think this is an appropriate time to entertain a greater Uranian presence in our country. Its conduct clearly does not merit a physical presence in Canada. We acknowledge that interest, but we are satisfied at the moment that Switzerland is able to provide the necessary services to Ukranian citizens in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. McCardell.

Unfortunately, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, that is your time.

We'll now move on to the NDP.

Mr. Bachrach, you have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Speaking to the issue of compensation and the decision to reject the Iranian offer of compensation, was that decision made with the support of the families of the victims?

[Sandra McCardell]

To be clear, there has been no formal offer and no formal rejection. What we've seen is media commentary made by Iran to attract attention to their position. While these negotiations are ongoing and we can't discuss details, I can assure you that there is strong coordination among all five countries that we will follow through on negotiations with a united voice to press Iran, and that negotiation will be beginning as soon as possible.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you for that response.

Do those negotiations occur with conversation with the families of the victims? Perhaps I'll rephrase that. Are there ongoing conversations with the families that are occurring parallel to the negotiation around compensation?

[Sandra McCardell]

We have regular communication with the families at a variety of levels. You have heard that Minister Garneau and Minister Alghabra have been in touch directly with families. Through the task force, which Ms. Cameron leads, we have regular exchanges with families through writing and phone calls. We do have good communication with them.

I think that, as the negotiations go forward, given the need to keep those positions as protected as possible, we need to ensure that the five countries coordinate together but that the Iranians don't understand what our positions or strategies are. That aspect does limit our ability to be as transparent as we might be in other circumstances. Clearly, a difficult negotiation like this over many years requires very judicious strategies and close protection of that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Bachrach, you can squeeze in one more question.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Has the government worked with international aviation organizations, including ICAO and IATA, to pressure Iran to comply with the international standards for the investigation and to ensure adequate compensation for the victims?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I'll speak to the first part, Mr. Chair.