Transport Committee on May 13th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Good afternoon, everyone. It is my pleasure to call this meeting to order. I welcome each and every one of you to meeting number 32 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are all aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few points. First, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. This is a reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With regard to the speakers list, as always, the committee clerk and I will do the very best we can to maintain the order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person. When I raise the hand in my box there, that's the indication that you have one minute remaining in your speaking or in your introduction.

With that, members, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on March 23, 2021, the committee will now begin its study of the government's response to the Ukraine International Airlines flight 752 tragedy.

I would now like to introduce and welcome our witnesses today. Appearing for the first hour, from 3:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m., is the Honourable Omar Alghabra, the Minister of Transport, and the Honourable Marc Garneau, the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Between 4:30 and 5:30, we will have, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Sandra McCardell, assistant deputy minister; Arif Lalani, director general, international organizations bureau; Brian Szwarc, director general, consular operations; and Michelle Cameron, head of the PS752 task force.

From the Department of Transport, we'll have Kevin Brosseau, assistant deputy minister, safety and security; Patrick Juneau, director, aviation safety policy and intelligence; and finally, John Velho, director, passenger protect program and targeting operations.

Starting us off for the first hour, we have both Minister Alghabra and Minister Garneau.

I'm not sure which one of you wants to go first, but whoever does, you have the floor for five minutes. Welcome.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

I suggest Minister Alghabra. We didn't queue this up between us, but I'm ready as well.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

I'm happy to start, if you want. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair and colleagues, good afternoon. Thank you very much for inviting me back to be with you once again. This is, I think, my third appearance since my appointment, and I am also delighted to join with my colleague, Minister Garneau, who was the previous Minister of Transport. He has been working diligently on the file on this tragedy since he was Minister of Transport, and he is continuing the hard work that Canadians and families deserve as the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I'm also here with officials who can offer some assistance as needed.

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate in this discussion.

I am happy to join you virtually today.

Transport Canada appreciates the work of the committee on all matters related to air safety and security and is available to assist in any way it can.

On January 8, 2020, the downing of Ukraine International Airlines flight 752 claimed the lives of 176 innocent people, 138 of them with ties to Canada, including 55 Canadian citizens and 30 permanent residents. The loss of so many lives was a terrible tragedy.

We honour the memory of those who perished and offer our sincere condolences to all who mourn the victims of the PS752 tragedy. We share the grief of the families, relatives and friends who lost loved ones. It left behind a void that can never be refilled for all Canadians, but especially for the victims' families. Over the last year, I've had the privilege to work closely with many family members, including those represented by the PS752 family association.

Their strength, resilience and determination should set an example for all of us.

We have a duty to learn from past events. We have to do better. We owe it to the victims and their families. The Government of Canada's priority since the downing of PS752 has always been to provide families and loved ones with the support they need. We continue to work with other impacted countries to hold Iran to account for this tragedy and seek transparency and justice for the victims and families.

Canada has been at the forefront of global efforts to uncover the full truth of what happened when flight PS752 was shot down, including by highlighting the major shortcomings of the Iranian investigation and demanding that Iran provide answers to Canadians who lost loved ones.

Through the safer skies initiative, we are addressing the gaps in how the civil aviation sector deals with conflict zones. The safer skies initiative commits Canada to working with international partners to improve the safety and security of worldwide air travel. Much progress has been achieved at the international level to advance Canada's safer skies initiative, including the creation of the safer skies consultative committee, the safer skies commitment statement and Transport Canada's hosting of the first global safer skies forum, focused exclusively on the risks that conflict zones pose to civil aviation operations.

Budget 2021 provides $9.1 million for the safer skies initiative, including a permanent, dedicated and fully resourced conflict zone information office within Transport Canada. This office will enhance our ability to monitor foreign conflict zones and rapidly warn air operators of new or emerging risks.

We began engaging with dozens of countries on how to make the world's airspace safer. We held the inaugural safer skies forum in December, bringing countries together with the united goal of preventing these events from ever happening again. People travelling from one part of the world to another should have confidence that they will not be exposed to safety and security risks that conflicts pose to civilian flight operations.

We will further address the clear shortcomings and failures of Iran's final accident investigation report at the International Civil Aviation Organization. We are also examining the annex 13 regime, which so far has worked as intended, to see if any improvements can be made.

The tragedy of flight PS752 was heartbreaking.

Another terrible incident like it would be unthinkable. We must never forget, but we must move forward. We can demonstrate our commitment to the families by working to prevent potential future disasters.

Today, the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship announced a new public policy to offer a pathway to permanent residence for in-Canada families of victims of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 and Ukraine International Airlines flight 752 who were Canadian citizens or permanent residents. This measure is an important part of the Government of Canada's ongoing support to these families. In-Canada families of victims who were Canadian citizens, permanent residents or foreign nationals who were found eligible on their permanent residence application can apply for permanent residence under the policy, which will remain in effect until May 11 of next year.

The Government of Canada is committed to supporting these families, who have demonstrated strength, courage and grace throughout this difficult and challenging time. Every aviation tragedy and each loss of life is one too many. This is why we continue to ensure better and safer air travel for all Canadians, both at home and abroad.

To honour all victims of air tragedies, the Government of Canada has designated January 8 of every year as a National Day of Remembrance for Victims of Air Disasters. On this day, every year, we will stand with Canadians across the country to remember and honour the people who were lost in these tragedies and mourn alongside those they left behind. We will continue to work to ensure that this never happens again.

I want to thank you again, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to meet with you virtually today.

I will be happy to answer your questions.

I welcome your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Alghabra.

We'll now move on to Minister Garneau.

Minister Garneau, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Garneau, before you start, we're getting a mix between French and English. I'm hearing both. Mr. Clerk, please deal with that.

Mr. Garneau, you have the floor.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today. I am happy to be back, this time as Minister of Foreign Affairs.

We all remember January 8, 2020. We remember our feelings of devastation from the tragedy. We remember our grief over the incredible lives lost. The downing of flight PS752 is a Canadian tragedy.

Let me begin by reiterating my deep condolences to the families for their loss.

I have had the opportunity to speak with families a number of times over the past year. Each encounter is a painful reminder of their heartbreaking loss. The stories and incredible lives of their loved ones touched so many of us. They will be remembered.

From the beginning, the government has been focused on providing families and loved ones with the support they need.

Global Affairs’ consular team worked around the clock to deliver services and deployed a team to Iran to provide immediate local assistance to families. Officials worked to respect the wishes of the families to repatriate their loved ones. They brought in Farsi speakers to translate documents and answer questions. Counselling services, legal advice and expedited banking support were all arranged for families free of charge. Visas were facilitated to enable relatives to travel to Canada to settle affairs and to support surviving family members, with all fees waived. RCMP coordinated local police across the country to offer continuing support to all family members.

To reduce the immediate financial burden, as families dealt with the loss of their loved ones, $25,000 per victim was made available to families for emergency costs. Canada matched private donations to the Canada Strong campaign. Talks were opened with the airlines to ensure prompt compensation, as required by law.

Our support to the families continues to this day, with regular communication with families. In December the Prime Minister designated January 8 of each year as the National Day of Remembrance for Victims of Air Disasters. We are offering a pathway to permanent residence to family members, establishing scholarships in memory of those lost on PS752, and will establish a physical tribute in remembrance of air disasters.

From that very first day the Prime Minister was also absolutely clear. Canadians and the families have questions, and they deserve answers from Iran. We knew that getting a full accounting of the causes of this tragedy from Iran was going to be a long and difficult process. Only Iran has full access to the evidence, the crash site, witnesses, and those ultimately responsible. Iran’s initial denials of responsibility, and their lack of transparency since, has not inspired confidence.

The government continues to work tirelessly and in coordination with other nations affected by this tragedy.

To keep Iran accountable for its actions, Canada founded the PS752 international coordination and response group to bring the voices and efforts of all the grieving nations together. We have repeatedly raised PS752 at the ICAO Council, the UN General Assembly, the UN Human Rights Council and just recently, last week, at the G7.

In March 2020, our government appointed the Honourable Ralph Goodale as the Prime Minister’s special adviser on PS752. In December 2020, he delivered his report. In it, Special Advisor Goodale asked 23 groups the critical questions we expected Iran to answer.

Despite Iran’s final report, released in March of this year—14 months after the downing—we are still without a complete accounting of the events that led to the disaster.

We knew that we could not trust Iran to produce these answers. This is why we stood up the Canadian Forensic Examination and Assessment Team. We await their final analysis, but we fully expect a transparent account of what Canada knows and an assessment of Iran’s final report, including what questions remain outstanding.

We are now entering into the process of negotiations with Iran to ensure that they make full reparations, which includes a transparent accounting of the true causes of this tragedy, as well as compensations.

We enter this process with eyes wide open. Our focus will be on getting answers backed with credible evidence from Iran, first and foremost, for the victims and their grieving families. We will also ensure that we receive assurances, in concrete terms, that measures have been put in place to prevent such a tragedy from occurring in the future.

Throughout this process we will continue to keep the world’s attention on this issue. We will raise it at every appropriate multilateral venue. Our resolve will not fade. And we will never forget. This is our solemn promise to the families of the victims, and indeed all Canadians.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Garneau.

We're now going to move on to our first round within the first hour. Starting us off, from the Conservatives, is Mrs. Kusie.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister Garneau, on January 8, 2020, PS752 was struck out of the sky by two Iranian missiles: 176 souls on board perished; 138 were heading to Canada; 55 were Canadian citizens; 30 were permanent residents of Canada.

Do you believe that the downing of PS752 was an attack against Canada, yes or no?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I thank my colleague for the question.

As a result of the tragic downing of PS752, we have required those answers from Iran. As I said in my opening remarks, those answers have not been provided to us as of yet.

Special Advisor Goodale, in his final report, put out a list of 21 critical questions that remain to be answered, questions such as why the airspace was left open and why the airlines that were flying out of Tehran airport were not notified that there was a heightened level of security.

Those questions remain to be answered. Iran has not provided all of the answers that we are looking for, and we will continue to push for those answers.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister Garneau, do you believe Iran targeted Canada in response to the assassination of General Soleimani, yes or no?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

We are waiting for the forensic report, which I mentioned in my opening remarks. Hopefully, that will provide further information on what actually happened that night. Ultimately, Iran knows all the facts and Iran must provide all the answers, and that will be part of our negotiations.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister Garneau, why has no response been taken by this government of any significance, in particular implementing Magnitsky sanctions specifically against Iran, in particular placing the IRGC as a terrorist group, as was passed in the House of Commons in the last Parliament?

What is most despicable, Minister, is that your government continues to exploit the pain of the victims' families while not taking any unilateral actions. When will you have the courage to act on behalf of the victims' families and Canadians?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to say very clearly that we have been working tirelessly to get the answers so that our grieving families can get full accountability on what happened with PS752. We will continue to push for it.

With respect to sanctions, as my honourable colleague will know, Canada has established sanctions against Iranian individuals and entities in the past, and we always keep that option open for the future.

With respect to the IRGC, she will know that the Quds Force, which is part of the IRGC, is classified by Canada as a terrorist entity.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister Garneau, you state in your opening statement that the government is waiting for the truth about what happened to come out of Iran before taking any significant action, which I mentioned you have clearly yet to do.

If that is the case, Minister Garneau, do you believe the world will ever truly know what happened to flight PS752?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

We will do our utmost to provide those answers to the world. We require Iran to be fully accountable for what happened, and I think the forensic report, which will come out in the coming weeks, will also shed additional light.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

With military action having taken place in Iran from the assassination of General Soleimani, and then the missile strikes against U.S. troops in the area, was Canada concerned for the safety of Canadians in Iran? Were any measures taken to inform the Canadians in Iran of the ongoing military dangers?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

What I will say to my colleague is that Canada did notify the only airline company—I was transport minister at the time—that had a flight path that went over Iran. We notified them that they should divert and not fly over Iranian airspace.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Canada's statement on flight PS752 at the ICAO said that Canada is “deeply concerned about the lack of convincing information and evidence, despite the publication of this investigation report. The report makes no attempt to answer critical questions about what truly happened” that fateful evening.

If that's the case, why has the government not administered consequences for Iran, such as sanctions, due to Iran's lack of transparency and co-operation and, worst of all, its disregard for Canadian lives?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

We are in the process of continuing to try to get those answers.

My colleague should also know that we are in the process of beginning negotiations for reparations. That is an integral part of the whole process, and we will see how that process goes forward. One of the requirements with that, of course, is the full accountability that we're all seeking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Garneau, and thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

We are now going to move on to the Liberals.

Mr. Ehsassi, you have the floor for six minutes.

By the way, Mr. Ehsassi, welcome to the committee.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for having me here today.

Thank you, ministers, for making yourselves available for the umpteenth time to this committee and always making yourselves available on an individual basis.

Minister Garneau, if I could begin with you, sir, since the beginning of this tragic incident 16 months ago, we have all witnessed the Iranian government display unconscionable conduct and a cavalier attitude towards the families as well as its international obligations. Among others, we could cite the fact that we did see the Iranian government bulldoze the scene of the accident the day after the tragic accident.

We have seen the Iranian government intimidate the relatives of those who lost loved ones. We saw and experienced the Iranian government's delaying of the handing over of the black boxes. We have had an opportunity to read their final report, which essentially raises more questions than it answers and says nothing about the decision-making process that happened on that tragic day. We have also seen the Iranian government not pursue culprits in Iran.

In other words, everything we have seen for the past 16 months demonstrates that the Iranian government has acted in an egregious manner and has demonstrated a flagrant disregard for due process and transparency.

Would you agree with my characterization, Minister?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Yes, Mr. Ehsassi, I would agree 100% with your characterization.

It began right away, with Iran first of all denying that they had committed this shooting down of flight PS752, and in the ensuing months, as you pointed out, intimidating family members. It took us repeated communications with Iran and speaking at the ICAO to finally get them to send the black boxes to Paris for analysis.

The report that they have put out is totally unacceptable in terms of accountability. The Iranian final report says that it was human error, and they have recently announced that they are indicting 10 people. What they are doing is laying the blame on some low-level people who operated the missile battery and not providing the accountability within the chain of command and the real decision-makers surrounding this and answering why the airspace was left open and why the airlines were not warned that there was a heightened level of activity.

The behaviour of the Iranian government has been frankly unconscionable in these past 15 months, and we are going to continue to pursue them so that we have accountability for the families.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

As you know, in international law, the Iranian authorities are required to provide a prompt, effective, independent and transparent investigation. Now, in your remarks, you did say that, as Canadians, “[o]ur focus will be on getting answers backed with credible evidence from Iran”. Given what we have seen in the last 16 months, how do you propose to do so?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

It is by continuing to insist on getting full, accountable and transparent answers in our interactions with Iran, and by making clear to Iran that we are not satisfied with what they have provided so far. At this point, we will also be going into negotiations with them for reparations. This touches on a whole bunch of areas, but part of that will also involve providing full accountability.

That is what the Canadian government has committed to doing to get all of the answers, and I believe the forensic report that was commissioned by our government will provide some additional insights. It will be coming out in the coming weeks.