Transport Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Minister Garneau certainly was involved at the time as Minister of Transport. As you know, TSB is an arm's-length organization and it's mandated to conduct independent investigations. I followed with great interest the criticism, the comments and the observations the TSB has been making throughout this journey about the shortcomings of access and transparency in the investigation.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I will add that it would have been nice had the TSB been allowed to become a fully involved investigator when the black boxes were analyzed. It was an observer. That is because of very prescribed rules that exist, as I explained in French, which say that the ones who have the principal roles are the country where it happened, Iran; the owner of the airline, which is Ukraine; and the maker of the airplane, which is the United States and France. That's prescribed in the rules.

Our Transportation Safety Board has a huge amount of expertise. I'm sure that even as observers, they were able to get a very good understanding of what the black boxes revealed. Their report and their public comments were very valuable in recent months.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Garneau.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach and Minister Alghabra.

We're now going to move on to our second round.

Starting us off, for five minutes, is Mr. Shipley, with the Conservatives.

You have the floor.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the ministers for being here today.

I'd like to start off with Minister Garneau.

Minister Garneau, the Canadian Coalition Against Terror would like this government to do more to hold the Iran government accountable for this terrible attack. They would also like the government to list the Iranian revolutionary guard corps as a terrorist organization.

Why has the government refused to classify the IRGC as a terrorist organization?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I will remind my colleague, because I've been in Parliament for a while, that the same demand was made of the Conservatives when they were in power under the Harper government. Former minister Baird, who was the foreign affairs minister at that time, also said that it could not be done.

However, that being said, the Quds Force, which is an element of the IRGC, is classified as a terrorist entity.

The process of deciding whether an entity is a terrorist entity is done very carefully by the government within certain very well-defined criteria, and it is a process that we have to respect.

However, there is no question that the Quds Force, which is a very active element of the IRGC, has been identified—in fact, by the Conservatives, and we support that—as a terrorist entity. We have put sanctions on members of the IRGC over the years.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that. And yes, that's definitely before my time.

I need a bit more clarification, if you could, please, Mr. Garneau. You have all the knowledge to share with me here today. Back on Monday, June 11, 2018, there was an opposition motion brought forward by Mr. Garnett Genuis. I'm not going to read it all. It's too long, and I have only a few minutes left. It reads, in part, as follows: “immediately designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a listed terrorist entity under the Criminal Code of Canada”. There was a vote taken on Tuesday, June 12, where that part remained in that. You voted yes to that, Mr. Garneau, and it was passed.

Why would you vote yes to that, and that it not be amended or taken out, if you're saying now today that it can't be done?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

There are very specific rules that come into play in defining whether any entity is classified as a terrorist entity. The IRGC, which is very much identified with the State of Iran, does not, as a total entity, fit within the criteria with respect to designating a terrorist entity.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

I have one more question in regard to this. Obviously, after this, I'm going to have to look more into these criteria.

I have in my hand a news release from February 3, 2021, from the Government of Canada, indicating 13 new groups that were placed on our Criminal Code and listed as terrorist groups. All these groups fit into the criteria you mentioned, but the IRGC does not. Am I correct in that?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

That is correct.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I will move on, then, Mr. Garneau, and thank you for that.

What role has Canada played in the international coordination and response group with other countries, namely Ukraine, Sweden, Afghanistan and the United Kingdom, to hold this Iranian regime accountable for its actions?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

My predecessor, Minister Champagne, brought the five together under his chairmanship, and they have been meeting on a regular basis since that time. I will be meeting with them very shortly.

The group included the five countries that had citizens on board who died, apart from Iran itself, which had citizens as well. The purpose of creating this coordination group was to arrive at a coordinated approach with respect to how we would deal with Iran, particularly in the context of seeking reparations. The feeling was that it would be very important for us to be unified in approaching Iran with our claims, based on a common approach with respect to what we were looking for.

This group has met on numerous occasions. Since I've become the foreign minister, I've met individually—virtually—with each of the member foreign ministers. We will soon meet as a group to move forward with what's called the notice of claim, which is the official notice to Iran that we are going to enter into negotiations for reparations.

It's a very important group in terms of taking a common approach. It has worked very well up until now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Garneau, and thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We're now going to move on to the Liberals.

Ms. Jaczek, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both ministers for being here in front of our committee yet again.

York region was particularly hard hit by the shooting down of Ukrainian flight 752, because so many people of Persian origin live here. They're our friends and our neighbours. In my own riding of Markham—Stouffville, we lost three members of the Rahimi family. The town of Whitchurch-Stouffville organized a candlelight vigil. During the tributes that we heard that evening, it was very clear that they had become really well-loved members of our community.

I'm very pleased, Minister Garneau, that you're keeping those lines of communication as open as you can as you discover more of the answers. We did see in the Ethiopian Boeing Max 8 crash that this was particularly important, bringing as much information as you possibly can to the families' attention.

My first question is for Minister Alghabra.

It's so important that we prevent any future tragedy like this in any way we can. I'm particularly interested in how the federal government communicates risks to safety or security to air carriers. We know there are many areas of conflict across the globe. What does that look like? What kind of communication occurs?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I want to thank Ms. Jaczek for her advocacy on behalf of the families. Undoubtedly, York region has been hit hard. Not only immediate families live in the region, but there are so many friends who live there. I've been there on many occasions, meeting with families and their friends. I want to thank her for her advocacy.

She's right. It is very important, and Transport Canada takes its role extremely seriously, to ensure that we constantly liaise with Canadian air operators to share information—to discuss and provide them with information on risk profiles and appropriate mitigation measures.

We do this on a regular basis, either through notices to airmen, which are known as NOTAM, or through the aeronautical information circulars, which is a notification mechanism that we provide to air operators.

I do want to say that because of what happened, we looked to strengthen our mechanisms or our systems. Transport Canada has recently established a conflict zone information office to be responsible for monitoring foreign conflict zones and issuing notifications to air operators, so they have the information that they may not otherwise have to keep their passengers safe.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Do the airlines actually notify passengers? How does that risk assessment end up? Are airlines required to notify passengers of any particular risks?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

The information comes into three different levels. One is just as information provided to the air operators, so they are aware. The second type of information comes in the form of a recommendation, where we would recommend mitigation measures. The third form would come in a NOTAM, which is notice to airmen, where we ban flights from flying over certain zones.

It is really incumbent on air operators to take that type of information seriously and act accordingly.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

You have touched on the role of ICAO to a certain extent, but can you explain maybe in a little more detail the role that ICAO plays in promoting safer airspace and explaining the dangers of conflict zones?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

ICAO plays an extremely important role in the coordination and development of standards, recommendations and guidance across the world. It provides air navigation advice. It provides advice to operators. It sets standards.

They really play an important role as a multilateral international institution to coordinate efforts to maintain safer skies and to ensure that air operators follow a stringent and high level of standard.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

In the few seconds I have left, did the airspace in Iran meet the ICAO threshold for a conflict zone the night of the shooting?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

That's why we still have so many unanswered questions, as Minister Garneau has repeatedly said today. Iran is refusing to answer why their airspace was left open, why they gave permission to the airliner to fly under these circumstances.

It is from the lessons of that particular tragedy that we're creating the safer skies initiative, because we know now that we need to play a global leadership role in identifying, assessing and providing information on global conflict zones and providing information to air operators.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Jaczek.

We're now going to move on to the Bloc.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor, for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the discussions we've had thus far with Mr. Alghabra, Mr. Garneau and other members of the committee, we've frequently revisited the fact that it's impossible to get answers from Iran and that we're unable to resolve this mystery. As we've noted, the families' questions remain unanswered.

In the report that he tabled last December, Mr. Goodale wrote that where there is concern about the independence, transparency, impartiality or efficacy of investigations being undertaken by other parties in a disaster situation, the government should give prompt consideration to the creation of a Canadian investigative vehicle along the lines of the forensic examination and assessment team to ensure that we have capacity to develop our own analysis of what happened. The families are also calling for an independent investigation.

Do you intend to put that in place?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

That's why we set up a Canadian examination and assessment team to conduct our own investigation based on available information. That's what we decided to do because we weren't satisfied with Iran's report.

My colleague Minister Alghabra has noted that this is one of the reasons why we want to try to introduce amendments to annex 13 of the Chicago Convention. Overall that annex covers quite well what has to be done in the event of an accident, but not what must be done in the event the country where the accident occurred is the country responsible for the accident.

That creates a conflict of interest, and that's precisely what we want to avoid in future so that investigations are conducted independently, which is not currently the case.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

What steps have you taken to ensure annex 13 is amended?

Is there a timeline?

Could that have an impact in the specific case of Iran?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Perhaps I could defer that to the current transport minister, the process of seeing whether Canada can bring changes to annex 13.