Transport Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Sandra McCardell]

As we noted, the coordination group included several coordination components. We discussed the events together to develop a negotiation strategy. We also worked together to compare available information. We spoke at length with Minister Garneau about the facts, as they're known, surrounding the incident that occurred in Iran, and we agreed to share information. With regard to Ukraine, for example, we are currently supporting a criminal investigation. That has resulted in significant and continuing international cooperation.

You also mentioned the work being done in Canada. As you can see here, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Transport are cooperating closely. However, we also have other partners. The RCMP, for example, has been working with the families from the start. It has established a counselling system to support the families during the hardest times. Our work continues with Ukraine. We have also established a consular system and services. Minister Garneau discussed that earlier. By that I mean visa services for families wishing to come to Canada and financial support for those families. The $25,000 has helped them deal with the biggest financial emergencies.

There has been cooperation in Canada and internationally from the start, and it continues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Ms. Cameron, do you have anything to add? Go ahead.

[Michelle Cameron, Head, PS752 Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That was a very comprehensive answer that covered our domestic efforts within the Government of Canada across departments. I would just supplement the answer.

We've worked with both municipal governments and provincial governments to ensure that when families come to us with their needs.... As they're processing their grief and as they're settling their estates, they come to us with a number of challenges. We also work domestically to make sure that services are aligned across the various levels of government.

In addition to the international efforts that Ms. McCardell outlined, I wanted to highlight as well, because it really is worth reiterating, that with our coordination group partners and standing together with them, we were able to bring a strong statement to the Human Rights Council. We were able to garner support for the annual human rights resolution around Iran, which included the failures of Iran around PS752. Leveraging our allies and our international partners, we also made a strong case with the G7 ministers, at the G7, that PS752 was indicative of Iran's continuing human rights abuses.

I would just add that to supplement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Cameron.

Thank you, Ms. McCardell, and thank you, Mr. El-Khoury.

We're now going to move on to our next speaker from the Bloc, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for you, Mr. Juneau. Earlier you mentioned that you had introduced an air security program. Please remind me of the exact name of that program, which I've forgotten. The aim is to ensure that people don't fly over sectors that might put them in danger.

Did you have any indication that flight PS752 might not be safe before it flew over Iran?

What specifically was done to advise passengers of that?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I'll start that answer, and perhaps my colleagues from Global Affairs might want to speak about public notice.

I'll say, first of all, that we knew, based on the activity and the heightened tensions in that area, that the conflict had escalated. On that date, we talked to Air Canada, which was our only Canadian air carrier that was flying in and around that region on a flight from Dubai. They had decided to reroute so they weren't flying over that specific region, given its tensions. We spoke with Air Canada and had discussions with the FAA as well. The FAA had issued a notice—we call it a NOTAM, a notice to airmen—about three hours before PS752 took off.

Back to your direct question, what specifically was told to the passengers on that plane, I do not know. Our interactions, again, were with Air Canada. We also tweeted out information that Canada and Transport Canada were actively monitoring the area that night because of the concern.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

From what I understand of your answer, you essentially communicate with the airlines here to give them recommendations that they might generally be inclined to follow. However, you don't necessarily contact people who fly on non-Canadian airlines.

This happened in 2020, but what would be different for people boarding an aircraft of a non-Canadian airline if the same situation occurred in 2021?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I think what the honourable member is speaking to is exactly at the heart of safer skies and the work we're doing in terms of exchanging information with other countries.

On the issue of the NOTAM, which I've talked about many times, it is available to all airlines, while our regulatory enforcement is only over Canadian airlines. It is available to all pilots and other airlines as they make their decisions. When they see a NOTAM issued by Canada over a particular area, it would alert them that Canada is concerned about that, and that ought to inform their risk assessment. It goes to the heart of making sure that, to the extent possible, information is shared among airlines and among like-mined countries so that everyone is able to make a risk assessment based on the same information, or as much information as possible and, ultimately, those conflict zones and dangerous airspaces are safer.

Thank you.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

If I understand you correctly, an effort still has to be made to forewarn people of these situations. It's our responsibility to inquire and to consult government websites, but we know that people increasingly switch off the news. So it's appropriate to contact them and inform them about these situations.

Going back to the Iran situation, would you say that a flight over Iran is a safe flight?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I'll speak to a couple of aspects related to that.

First of all, the report that was released by Iran, their final investigative report, talked about measures that had been taken, but I think it left significant gaps and questions in our minds associated with the measures and steps they had taken to ensure that the airspace was safe.

Second, ministers have spoken about the forensic team report. I don't want to prejudge it, but the purpose is to be able to tell the full story about what actions were taken, which then, I think, will lead to being able to make a proper assessment of the safety of that airspace in the future.

Finally, I would say that today Canada does have a NOTAM over Iran and Iraq that it didn't have in that space on January 7, 2020. Steps have been taken, and more needs to be happen, for certain.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Brosseau, and thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We'll now move on to the NDP.

Mr. Bachrach, you have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the officials for answering our questions.

Mr. Brosseau, I want to pick up on a line of questioning that I started with Minister Alghabra. This is around the different levels, if you will, of notification that are provided to airlines, related to the risk of flying into or over conflict zones.

If I understood him correctly, there are a number of different notices that can go out. The most stringent level is the ban. However, at all of the levels prior to a ban, the ultimate risk assessment still lies with the airline, with the company. I'm wondering about the incentive that those companies have to continue flights into higher-risk situations and how that should be managed so that they're responding appropriately to a given level of risk.

I'm not sure if I'm making that question clear, but there is a decision made about whether a flight goes ahead. It's based on all the information they have, but obviously there's an interest there in pursuing that activity. They have a financial interest at stake.

How do you see the safer skies initiative managing that decision-making process?

[Kevin Brosseau]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach, for the question. Let me lay out the groundwork in terms of some of the decision-making in the first place.

You are correct that most airlines have some sort of a security function or a safety function that will make a determination based on the carrying out of a risk assessment as to whether or not that particular flight is safe to proceed.

The pilot also has a very heavy responsibility in determining whether it's safe for her—or him—to fly that day, and in fact will inform herself of the NOTAMs and the various other conditions that are in existence in the space at that particular time, as well as the air traffic control and obviously the state where the airport, in this case, would be. There are a number of different players who have important responsibilities.

I recognize your point, and I'll say, as a regulator in Canada, that safety is part of it and we drill it in through our regulations, through the safety management systems, etc., that it has to be the primary concern. The various stops and checks along the way include, as I mentioned, providing the proper information in ensuring that all those decision-makers along the way actually are properly informed and have timely access to the best information they can possibly have.

I hope that answers your question.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's useful information. I think the reality is that those pressures exist in all sorts of different transportation sectors, where there are safety considerations at play and there are pressures to continue with business. I appreciate the points you've made there.

Perhaps shifting to a slightly different aspect, senior Ukrainian officials recently said that they believe Iran intentionally shot down PS752. Do you agree with this assessment?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I think it's really important—and Minister Garneau spoke to it—that Iran is the country that has all the information. It has the information to be able to make that determination.

The commitment the Prime Minister and the ministers have made is to get all those facts properly unearthed and understood. That's part of the reason why the forensic examination and assessment team was formed: to be able to assess all the information and intelligence available and to be able to reach findings and conclusions, etc., related to what in fact happened. It really is key, through that process, to be able to make that determination as to the point or the conclusion that you made.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Ukraine, under annex 13, is an active participant in the investigation. Presumably, they have access to more information than Canada does.

Will Canada's eventual assessment be based on the same amount of information as the Ukrainian...? The Ukrainian officials have already put their assessment out there that it was intentionally shot down. Can Canadians trust that assessment?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I can't speak to what information Ukraine had access to in the context of the safety investigation, as an accredited representative, because they of course represent the state of the airline.

What I can say is that this was a fundamental reason why the forensic examination team was established, because we were not receiving all the answers from Iran, and as a consequence, we had to set up a team of experts here in Canada who would look at all the information, information that perhaps Ukraine had access to—I don't know—to be able to have a fulsome assessment of that information and intelligence, and to be able to tell the families the best we know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Brosseau.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Moving on into our second hour, we're going to go into the first round of the second hour.

Mr. Soroka, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start off with Mr. Brosseau for my first question.

When Minister Alghabra was here, he mentioned that 19 countries and four businesses have signed on with the safer skies initiative. Are there going to be more countries signing on? If they do, will the information be better? Will there be more information, meaning that it will be safer to fly, or will it be just that if more countries or businesses sign on, it will be a safer world for people, in general, flying?

[Kevin Brosseau]

What Minister Alghabra was referring to was a joint commitment that emanated out of the safer skies forum at the beginning of December of last year. It really was an expression, almost like a joint statement, that came out of an international meeting. That's how I view it.

Regardless of whether a particular country, for whatever reason, perhaps doesn't sign on to it, I think the purpose of the forum, of the initiative, of the consultative committee that Minister Alghabra referred to is ultimately about making the dangerous airspaces in the world safer, and civil aviation safer.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Brosseau, do you have any measurable outcomes so far from the safer skies initiative?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I would start with the fact that, first of all, the conflict zone information office, CZIO, has been stood up. We've had a number of important meetings, with agreements signed. Canada has issued a notice to airmen over airspaces around the world and has ongoing dialogue in an important area where perhaps that dialogue and those discussions weren't happening and information wasn't being shared to that degree.

Perhaps it's not as clear as one, two and three, but the manner in which international civil aviation regulators and countries are interacting and sharing information is absolutely better than it was prior to.... Again, as I mentioned, it builds on the work of the Dutch post-MH17.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

With all the objectives that are laid out under the safer skies commitment, do you have the resources to implement it all currently, or do you need more resources for the future?

[Kevin Brosseau]

We were very fortunate to be identified to receive funds through the budget a few weeks ago, which will go a long way toward enabling us to give the stability and to crystallize the work here at Transport Canada, but it is a multipronged, multi-departmental, multi-country initiative, so the resources we have will absolutely be able to advance the safer skies initiative in a tangible and meaningful way.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

My next question will go to Ms. McCardell.

I understand that under the safer skies program we're trying to stop terrorists from attacking our planes. Are there some other opportunities besides the information sharing? Are we going to look at, basically, war crimes against some of these people?

The problem comes to, even as the minister said earlier, the fact that they seem to sacrifice the lower-level people in the organization, except for the heads of the organization. Can we somehow manage to attack the head of the organization as opposed to just the underlings?