Transport Committee on June 10th, 2021

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

From what I understood earlier from the testimony, Mr. Tasker apparently went directly to Iran, to the site. He may be the best person to answer my question, but it's possible that someone else could as well.

How much concern is there for the safety of people sent into the field in these sorts of investigations and circumstances?

How serious are these concerns? Do people feel safe when they are there?

I would also like to know to what extent these concerns may prevent people from doing the work that needs to be done there.

[Kathleen Fox]

Let me ask Ms. Van Themsche to answer that question.

[Natacha Van Themsche, Director, Air Investigations, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board]

In this case, our team was deployed as part of a Department of Foreign Affairs team. In other words, we didn't do this alone. We had help. Deploying to a country like Iran is not usual for us. The situation is really specific to Iran. We have done a number of other international deployments. It's not generally a problem. In this case, however, we had some concerns. That's why we did it this way.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Okay.

My last question is for Mr. Goodale.

You have been in contact with the families. In your report, you drew a comparison between this incident and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. Could you tell me what you have learned about the victims and how those two cases are similar? The circumstances were not quite the same.

[Ralph Goodale]

Yes, the circumstances, as you point out, were really quite different, but the impact among the victims is really very similar. All of a sudden, loved ones are gone, and there is a huge sense of loss and grieving.

I think the message I drew out of that in terms of best practices in the government's response and how you move forward is for the government always to put the families of the victims at the centre of its response plans.

The families will need immediate emergency support. It may be physical. It may be psychological. It may be help with travel. It could be financial. There will be insurance arrangements to sort out. There will be remains to be repatriated. There's a whole raft of things that just fall on you like a disaster—as this was.

Whether it happened because the Max 8 was defective or because of a shoot-down, the trauma for the families is very similar. As your government is planning how to deal with emergencies, make sure your central focus is the families themselves.

Mr. Chair, I would just like to add, tangentially, a thank you to all members of Parliament. On at least three occasions, members of the House of Commons have moved unanimously to support resolutions that condemned the perpetrators of this disaster and supported the families. I've heard from the families that they appreciate very much that solidarity among members of Parliament, the stand four-square behind them as they pursue justice, truth, transparency and accountability for the dear loved ones they have lost.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, High Commissioner. Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on to the NDP. Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of questions for Ms. Fox from the TSB.

Ms. Fox, you've touched on this a bit, but back in March the TSB called for a review of the provisions of annex 13 of the ICAO convention, to improve transparency in future investigations. Can you explain to the committee why annex 13 needs a review and improvement to improve transparency?

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Chair, annex 13 was conceived to facilitate international investigations involving multiple states in the context of a more typical type of aircraft accident, so one where weather, human error or mechanical issues were a factor. It really wasn't conceived in the context of the shoot-down of a civilian airline by a military....

While it has provisions, for example, for delegation, which is what happened in the case of MH17, where Ukraine delegated the conduct of the investigation to the Dutch, no state is forced to do that. That's the very specific circumstance that we think needs to be looked at.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My assumption, Ms. Fox, is that the TSB's position is that other states should be granted full status in those investigations. Perhaps you could lay out what changes you think would improve annex 13 and address these issues around transparency and conflict of interest, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Ms. Fox.

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Chair, as Mr. Tasker outlined earlier, there may be a variety of ways to improve transparency and credibility. We have some ideas. For example, it could be a delegation by the state of occurrence to another state. It could be the creation of some sort of multinational investigation or the creation of some sort of third party neutral observer. The challenge is that, of course, ICAO is built on the principle of sovereignty and the state has sovereignty over its airspace. It's difficult in those circumstances to force.... You can't force a state to conduct itself in a certain way.

We believe if the states can come together to develop some protocols that would enhance the credibility and transparency, there's a better chance of success going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

You have time for a quick question, Taylor.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

To your knowledge, Ms. Fox, has ICAO expressed an interest in improving annex 13 in the ways you've mentioned?

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Chair, I'll ask Mr. Tasker to answer that, because he was directly involved in presenting that paper.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Tasker.

[Ewan Tasker]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

We presented the working paper, and there was a favourable reception, so the plan is to create a working group. That has yet to be approved by the Air Navigation Commission, but the concept was favourably looked upon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Tasker.

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Folks, it being 4:48, that is going to end our first panel.

I want to take this opportunity, on behalf of all the members of the committee, to thank the high commissioner, as well as all participants, for coming out today and giving us some very valuable information that will most definitely contribute to the report we're going to be presenting.

With that, I will excuse all. Once again, I give you my sincere appreciation for being here today.

I will suspend for two minutes while we make the switchover.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We'll reconvene the meeting.

We're going to move on now with our next panel until 5:30 p.m.

We have the Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims.

We're going to start off with Hamed Esmaeilion, the president and spokesperson.

Hamed, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion, President and Spokesperson, Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims]

Thank you very much. Good afternoon.

I am Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion, president and spokesperson of the Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims. We represent 142 victims of the mass murder that took 176 lives and an unborn child. I have with me two members of the board of directors, Mr. Kourosh Doustshenas and Mr. Amirali Alavi, from our government and stakeholder relations committee.

I appear before you with a heavy, broken heart. I will not ask you to put yourself in my place. You cannot, and I will not be so cruel to ask.

Seventeen months have passed, but we, the survivors, remain frozen in three minutes and 42 seconds, which was the time between when the first missile was fired and when flight PS752 crashed to the ground.

With the passing of time, we sink deeper and deeper into silent sorrow, but our resolve has strengthened. We do whatever we can do and plead to have done—meetings, writings, rallies, petitions, interviews and complaints.

We live in darkness. We are the victims of unfathomable evil and wickedness that ripped our loved ones from our embrace. The victims of terrorism don't have it easy. Some, like us, are put in a position to prove that it was terrorism. Without our government, we have no recourse to bring the perpetrators of this inhumane crime to justice. We have no recourse other than pleading with politicians to remain focused on revealing the truth and justice.

We are in darkness. Why was the airspace left open on that fateful, dark winter morning? Who in the highest ranks of the regime made the decision? Why and how were at least two missiles fired at a civilian aircraft?

No one asks why the Canadian passports and other belongings of the passengers were confiscated and wilfully allowed to be looted and stolen. No one at the ICAO raised their voice while every article of their conventions and annexes was breached by the Iranian government. No one at the ICAO raised their voice against the mockery and blatant obscurantism in the shambolic reports published by the very perpetrators of the crime, who were allowed to investigate their own crimes.

It seems as if an entire airplane has been lost in the clouds of international diplomacy and credulity. Was it human error, systemic failure, a lone, tired foot soldier who made a mistake, radars oriented in the wrong direction or broken communication lines? These are convenient lies disguised as mistakes and incompetence to whitewash wilful murder.

The past 17 months have been unbearable for us. We have been traumatized by the relentless psychological war unleashed upon us by the Islamic regime and its sympathizers, some of whom find Canada a safe haven to operate in. All we hear is that we must wait.

Compensation is not our priority. We have repeated this over and over again. Without the truth, there will be no justice. Without holding the perpetrators and commanders to account, justice will have no meaning whatsoever.

After 17 months, we remain unclear about the path to the truth. There is no road map to justice or a strategy with a timeline. Had the world acted meaningfully in the aftermath of the MH17 mass murder, PS752 may not have happened. Now, if we don't act meaningfully for PS752, more innocent lives will be lost.

Our demands are clear. Canada must take active leadership to mobilize the five affected countries. Canada must drag the ICAO out of its timid passiveness, disguised as neutrality. A criminal investigation and legal proceedings must be launched in Canada. The PS752 case must be taken to every relevant international tribunal that can hold the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to account, reveal the truth and bring the perpetrators to justice. The IRGC must be included in the list of terrorist organizations. The Magnitsky act must be applied to the commanders of the IRGC and other perpetrators of this crime.

Since I began my address to you, honourable members of our Parliament, another three minutes and 42 seconds have passed. Canada lost 85 permanent residents and citizens. Dozens of talented academic minds were silenced forever. This Canadian tragedy can be confronted only with a clear road map to justice. We can only hope for that day.

Thank you for your interest in hearing us today. We welcome your questions and comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Esmaeilion.

Members, we're going to go right into questions, starting with the Conservatives for six minutes.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Esmaeilion, for your touching testimony. I want to first offer my sympathies and my condolences to the families of the victims of PS752. As a wife and a mother, I cannot comprehend what you have been through.

Mr. Esmaeilion, you mentioned justice in your opening statement. The downing of PS752 was of course a horrible tragedy and was devastating for the families of the victims; the families of the victims from PS752 deserve justice and answers for what happened that fateful evening.

What do the families need to see from the Government of Canada to feel as though justice has been served?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

I think we need to see a strategy. We need to see a clear road map.

Seventeen months have passed and, as I said, we still are in darkness. We don't know anything about that flight. We don't know the reason for the delay. We don't know if passengers were taken off the plane or not before boarding. We don't know why they asked Canadian citizens if they had United States passports, so these questions must be answered.

I want my friend Mr. Doustshenas to add more if he can.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Doustshenas, go ahead.

[Kourosh Doustshenas, Representative, Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Hamed. I appreciate the question.

When we're talking to the officials—we talk to all who have a stake in this tragedy—we always say: We want to know the truth. We want to know justice. We want to get justice for our loved ones.

We have had a hard time explaining to everyone, from the very beginning and for the past 17 months now, that compensation is not what we want. That's not a priority for us. Truth and justice would allow us to have a sense of closure in our lives. Without that, we cannot go on. Our lives have been destroyed.

I lost my partner, Dr. Forough Khadem. She was a wonderful person. She was an academic. She had a fantastic career. She just went for a holiday to see her family. She didn't deserve to die like that, along with all the other people on board that plane. That's not acceptable. Canada cannot accept this as another thing that just happened. This was by no means an accident. There was absolutely zero evidence that this was just an accident. All the evidence we have seen through these past few months has directed us to think that this had some element of intentionality.

We thought to have a proper criminal investigation in Canada, and early on the RCMP—we don't know why—decided it could not open a criminal investigation in Canada. I think 176 dead bodies are enough reason to start a criminal investigation. I understand they may not have access to all the evidence in Iran, but that should not be a reason not to open the criminal investigation.

Thank you.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you have anything to add to that, Mr. Alavi?