Evidence of meeting #7 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nicholas Robinson  Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson
David Turnbull  Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Nicholas Robinson

I think what we'll do with that question.... It would be important to understand the process that's undertaken with regard to concern papers, which are actually very common practice and are used for validating authorities to identify areas that they seek further information on from the certifying authority.

I'll turn it over to my colleague, Dave Turnbull, to take you through the concern paper process, and as you mentioned the first edition, how that concern paper specifically evolved through the process that we had with the FAA and Boeing.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson.

I think we've been given a very good overview as to the process, but as I said it seems to clearly state that Transport Canada succumbed to commercial pressures and certified an aircraft with outstanding issues. I was wondering how this could possibly be a consideration. I wanted to know if this is a common justification for certifying an aircraft with an open concern paper, and has this justification been used with other approved aircraft by Transport Canada? Have you ever seen this case before?

3:50 p.m.

David Turnbull Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport

The answer is yes. Just for the record, my records indicate that it's concern paper C-FT-03. You might be mistaken there, just so we don't get fouled up with the record.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay. Thank you very much for that.

3:50 p.m.

Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport

David Turnbull

However, the question remains valid.

As Mr. Robinson explained, our process of raising papers throughout the validation process is aimed at seeking an understanding of how the certifying authority drew their conclusions. Particularly in this case, the question, and it was only a question, was to confirm and to understand a methodology that Boeing had been using to achieve compliance to a basic stall requirement, I'll call it part 25, paragraph 201.

What's been cited in the transport committee today represents focusing in on a particular part of that paper where indeed we did defer the closure of the concern paper to a future activity. That is not an unusual act for us to take. In each individual situation, where we have deliberately decided to leave an issue open, we make a deliberate determination whether the leaving open of that issue, if I may, actually constitutes a safety concern or not. In this case, it did not. We very deliberately left it open, knowing full well that we had not discovered a problem, but we had not yet fully grounded out a full understanding of how Boeing had conducted the test and how compliance had been found.

Why did we need to know this in the first place? The outcome of that exchange, which is included in the same document, would reveal that in the end we actually did get an understanding that in fact the system in the aircraft in question, in other words the speed-trim system that includes MCAS, does in fact play a role as a stall identification system versus a stall prevention system.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull. As well, you were correct that it is C-FT-03.

You've clarified that this has happened before, that there have been situations where there have been open concern papers.

I'll turn to my last question in this round, and it's on the same concern paper that you correctly identified as C-FT-03, which was left open. We saw disagreement between Transport Canada and the FAA, and even in the other concern papers that were eventually closed, we see the difficulty to obtain accurate information from Boeing and the FAA.

Given this, and the numerous testimonies we hear on how Canada has the expertise and approach to independently certify aircraft, why should we continue to go with a harmonized approach?

3:55 p.m.

Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport

David Turnbull

I would say that a harmonized approach to findings of compliance is critical to the industry. If each individual authority took a different interpretation of the same rule, the applicant, the manufacturer, would end up having to effectively recertify the aircraft every time someone asked a different question.

It is endemic to our business that we continually, through our international committees and with our airworthiness partners around the world, continue to strive to interpret these rules and regulations in the same fashion. That's critical so that we can establish a level playing field for the various products in the worldwide market.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Think you, Mr. Turnbull.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

We'll now go on to Mr. Bittle.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Some are calling for an independent inquiry before allowing Boeing Max to fly again.

Have any other aviation authorities or countries opted for such an inquiry?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Nicholas Robinson

Thanks for the question.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to actually take a step back and emphasize that the system that we have is based on an international model of experts, expert states that are global leaders in certification. The system relies on the importance of collaboration between these leaders, information sharing and a strong validation system.

It's crucial that we have a review of what has happened here with the Boeing 737 Max. That's why Canada has been a part of and has considered the multiple reviews that have already taken place.

Let me go through a couple of those reviews. This is not an exhaustive list.

We had, at the beginning, the U.S. Office of Inspector General audit, which sought a factual history of the activities that resulted in the certification of the Boeing 737 Max and produced findings that these four certification authorities will look at and review to see what changes are needed. We have the technical advisory board, a multi-agency review of the proposed MCAS software update and safety assessments that were made in order to determine sufficiency. For that too, we will look at the findings and determine changes.

We have the joint authorities technical review, a multi-authority review of the FAA process and procedures used in the certification of the flight control system of the Max. Canada was a specific partner with that review, as well as countries such as Australia, Brazil, China, the European Union, Indonesia, Japan, Singapore and the UAE. That too brought forward recommendations, and we are looking to see how to adapt and incorporate them into our system.

We have the U.S. blue ribbon panel, a review of FAA procedures for the certification of new aircraft, again, with recommendations and findings we need to consider and incorporate.

There was a recent and reported-on U.S. congressional report that reviewed the accountability and transparency of the certification process. That report uncovered that, as a result of the actions, the validating authorities did not have the full information to determine a validation decision, and it has presented some hard questions on the process that took place between Boeing and the FAA. We also have the NTSB review. Similar to our Transport Safety Board, this is the U.S. transport safety board equivalent. They have examined the safety assessment process and the original design approval of the Boeing MCAS and 737 Max.

We have the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines accident reviews. Those are safety investigations. Those, too, will produce findings and recommendations that need to be considered with regard to this aircraft. Of course we have this committee's review as well, which we'll be looking at for any findings or outcomes that will come up.

I'd also like to make you aware that Transport Canada has also launched a review following the accident, which is being led by our departmental audit branch. The objective of this review is to look internally and to assess the adequacy and effectiveness of the Transport Canada civil aviation approach to certifying aeronautical products, including design, implementation and oversight of its aircraft certification design program.

There are a lot of reviews that have taken place. As the Canadian civil aviation authority but also as the certification management team that's made up of four leading aircraft certification states, we are all looking at the outcome of those reports and making sure that the recommendations are considered and implemented where appropriate.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

Are you aware of any experts or organizations with technical expertise on certification calling for a public inquiry and, if so, whom?

November 26th, 2020 / 4 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Nicholas Robinson

We've spoken to a lot of individual Canadians seeking information about our review, and we provided that information to those individuals. I'm not particularly aware of any experts or Canadian aeronautical organizations that are seeking a review. I would refer to the primary association that represents design and manufacturers, AIAC, which has not called for a review, nor has our very abundant aerospace industry that we have in Canada.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Is it the same with pilot unions?

4 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Nicholas Robinson

From pilot unions, we've engaged ALPA, ACPA and Unifor. Those are the three pilot unions of the three Canadian operators.

We've engaged them from the beginning of the process and continue to update them and provide them information. We will be providing them a full briefing. They're already aware of our decisions that are going to be finalized. I haven't heard from any of those three with regard to an independent review.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

You can have a quick question, Mr. Bittle.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Have any independent inquiries previously taken place under areas of Transport Canada's jurisdiction outside of some of the types of inquiries you've mentioned?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

You can have a quick answer, Mr. Robinson.

4 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Nicholas Robinson

I'm sorry, but just to confirm, is that with regard to aerospace or aviation?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

If that's the only area you can comment on, then yes, in terms of aviation.

4 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Nicholas Robinson

In commenting on aviation, no, I'm not aware of any independent review that has taken place such as this.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Robinson, and thank you, Mr. Bittle.

We'll now move onto the Bloc Québécois, with Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In the testimony that we have previously heard at this committee, a number of witnesses were most interested in the issue of certification and the experts working on it. Mr. Primeau and his colleague, Mr. Alarie, two engineers who specialize in critical systems, came to testify. Mr. Robinson and Mr. Turnbull, I believe that your testimony came shortly after theirs, if I recall correctly. Perhaps you were even able to be here for it.

Among the recommendations that were made, two caught my attention.

The first was that, with all regulations that apply to changed products, all the acquired rights provisions that normally apply would no longer be deemed to be acquired, especially if something was new or had been changed in a critical system that had previously been certified.

The second was that, in trials, all new critical systems, or all critical systems, must be tested in an integrated way with all the related systems. That is to say that, as soon as a system is modified, the entire aircraft is tested, including everything related to a critical system, rather than testing solely the critical element as such. This eliminates the acquired rights category.

I would like to know whether Transport Canada intends to adopt those two recommendations.

4 p.m.

Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport

David Turnbull

I'll take that question.