Evidence of meeting #8 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measures.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I think we're playing word games.
Are you able to name a single case in the jurisprudence that supports the interpretation that passengers aren't entitled to a refund in these circumstances?
4:10 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
As a quasi-judicial tribunal, we make decision case by case based on the facts and on the relevant act and regulations. This means that we consider all terms and conditions and all circumstances.
It's a question of interpretation of the legislation. I think all the honourable members understand that it isn't appropriate for me, as chair of the Canadian Transportation Agency, to interpret the legislation here or make formal rulings. There is a legal process for that.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I'd like to know if the people who work at the Canadian Transportation Agency know the provisions of the Quebec civil code relating to consumers.
4:10 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
I suppose some of them do.
It's provincial legislation. We're responsible for applying federal legislation.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
According to the Quebec civil code, when a service has not been rendered, it must be refunded. It would be interesting if federal institutions, such as the Canadian Transportation Agency, could recognize and enforce the legislation that already exists.
I have another question. The Canadian Transportation Agency recently released new details about its statement on vouchers. You say that this statement isn't a binding decision. I'm trying to understand.
Does the Canadian Transportation Agency have the power to issue a statement that is unenforceable but in conflict with the legislation?
4:15 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
The agency has the power to issue statements and guidance material on any topic within its scope.
As you specified, the statement does not change the obligations of the airlines or the rights of the passengers. The statement contains suggestions, and only suggestions. It isn't a binding decision.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Does the Canadian Transportation Agency have the power to change the legislation?
4:15 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
Of course not. The legislation exists, and our responsibility is to enforce it, which we always do impartially and objectively.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Don't you think the positions that have been taken by the Canadian Transportation Agency call into question its impartiality?
4:15 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
Not at all.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
But that's the impression many people have.
The Canadian Transportation Agency is currently nearly two years behind in processing the various complaints. Last spring, the agency also said that none of the complaints regarding air travel and ticket refunds would be dealt with until September.
What kind of message does it send to the airlines when it says that it won't deal with travel complaints? Are they being told not to issue refunds to their customers, because they're not going to get a slap on the wrist anyway?
4:15 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
With all due respect, I must say that our employees work very hard to deal with all the complaints received. It should be noted that 99% of these complaints were submitted to the agency as of December 15. So there isn't a two-year delay in processing. The processing of complaints takes a long time, I agree. It would be preferable to do it faster, but it's a matter of volume. The volume is unprecedented: we've received 22,000 complaints since December 15. We're working very hard to deal with all these complaints.
With respect to the complaints that were received during the pandemic, we will begin processing them in early 2021. The number of complaints is remarkable and challenging. We're working very hard on it.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I'd like your opinion on the following situation. Let's say that I manage a complaints department—
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval and Mr. Streiner.
We're now going to move to Mr. Bachrach, for six minutes.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.
During this pandemic, Canadians have been hurt financially in so many ways. I hear from constituents all the time who've lost their income, who are in financial distress and having trouble paying their bills. Now, a relatively modest number of Canadians were in a very specific situation where they bought airplane tickets, some of these very expensive in the thousands of dollars, from airlines that up until the pandemic were doing very well.
The airlines are huge corporations that in 2019 were celebrating billions of dollars in profits, and had access to billions of dollars in liquidity. We're being told by the government that these Canadians, who purchased these airfares, are not able to get a refund, because the government is concerned that the airline corporations are going to go bankrupt.
You're putting citizens in a situation where they're essentially involuntary or unwilling creditors to these huge corporations. To either Mr. Streiner or Mr. Hanson, how could you possibly construe this as a fair situation?
4:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport
Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to take this question.
I would direct the member's attention to the statement by Minister Garneau on November 8, which was quite explicit on this point. Although the government is prepared to consider assistance for air carriers, given the significant pressures on their liquidity, it is not prepared to do so unless Canadians, whose flights were cancelled due to the pandemic, receive a refund rather than a voucher.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Hanson, is it fair to say the government has been forced into supporting a situation that is profoundly unfair for those Canadians who are out of pocket from an airfare?
December 1st, 2020 / 4:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport
The government has always recognized the difficult situation, on the one hand, of individuals whose flights were cancelled as a result of the pandemic, and on the other hand, a situation where air carriers themselves have very constrained liquidity and cash flow because their revenues have collapsed. That's why it's come forward with an approach that says that it's prepared to provide support for the airlines, but putting conditionality on it in terms of refunds for passengers.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Streiner, in your opening remarks, if I understood you correctly, you indicated that the CTA was somewhat caught off guard by this gap in the regulation, and that in hindsight, this should have been rectified.
Is it fair to say you weren't aware of a gap in the air passenger protection regulations that could have avoided this situation?
4:20 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
I don't think anybody identified the gap. To be clear, the gap stems from the legislation. The legislation gave the CTA the authority to make the air passenger protection regulations.
If you read the relevant section related to cancellations that are outside the control of airlines, it constrains our ability to make regulations to only requiring that airlines ensure that passengers can complete their itineraries.
Frankly, if the section had been more permissive, we might well have established a refund obligation as we did for cancellations within the control of airlines, but we were constrained by the language of the legislation. I don't think anybody at the time, not parliamentarians, nor consumer rights advocates, recognized that the gap in the legislation and regulations could be as significant as we now realize it is.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Streiner, the reason I mention this is because the organization Air Passenger Rights wrote to the CTA during the crafting of those regulations and said very specifically:
APR is deeply concerned about the omission of a number of important issues from the Proposed Regulations. This state of affairs creates the incorrect impression that airlines are free to do as they please in these areas. APR strongly believes this was not Parliament's intent.
So here they are; they've identified the gap and they're bringing it to your attention. Was there nothing that the CTA could do to address the situation in the regulations?
4:20 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
In terms of establishing a refund obligation—I assume that's the question—for flight cancellations beyond airline control, the answer is no. The legislation constrained us. There was no way we could establish that obligation in the regulations given the wording of the legislation.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Picking up where Mr. Barsalou-Duval left off, I did not get clarity on this in the answers to his questions, so I'm going to ask them again.
4:20 p.m.
Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
Certainly.