Evidence of meeting #105 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was air.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Lepofsky, why do you think the minister seems to be so reluctant to take that decisive action that you've just described?
12:50 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
I've never spoken to the minister. I've had no contact with him. I can't comment on it. My only reason for focusing on it is the news release yesterday about a summit.
I don't want to make it sound like whatever they do is wrong and all of that stuff. We're not like that. It's just that we need action, not photo ops. If they do a photo op and take action, we'll say yay. Don't get me wrong.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
In your view, the government knows what needs to be done. They've had lots of time to do it.
In response to this litany of horrifying stories involving people with disabilities trying to travel, we heard testimony from the chief accessibility officer, and she very much echoed what you've said, which is that every single person she knows who has a disability and travels has had problems.
Given the severity of that situation, do you think that the government has all of the information that it needs to act? Is that what I'm hearing?
12:50 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
It does, as do the Canadian Transportation Agency and every airline. They have models from elsewhere in the world that they can turn to. Not everybody does it as badly as we do. That's why I dread entering Canadian airspace. Others do it better. I'm not saying they're all 100% either, but they're more reliable than here.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Who are the international leaders when it comes to the regulation and enforcement you're talking about?
12:50 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
I can't give you specific regulatory codes and those specifics. I'm not prepared for that today. I apologize.
I can just tell you that I don't recall a trip anywhere to the handful of countries I've been to where I've had to worry like I have to worry when I come here.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Lepofsky.
Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.
Next we have Mr. Muys.
Mr. Muys, the floor is yours for five minutes, please.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both witnesses for their very passionate advocacy and some practical solutions that I know are being captured by the analysts as we look to the report on this.
I just want to pick up on the thread from my colleague Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Lepofsky, you said right off the top that in the United States there's the Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights. That's obviously something that we should look to. We don't want Canada to be an airspace that you dread.
The question was asked about what other jurisdictions are leaders on this. You weren't prepared for that today, but would it be something that you'd be able to table to the committee afterwards?
12:50 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
If we can find something, we'd be happy to provide it.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Sure. Obviously, we should look to what are far better examples than what you're experiencing in Canada.
12:50 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
I mean, the CTA is paid to try to know this stuff. The federal government should have people who can come before you and give you this.
12:50 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
You shouldn't need lay volunteers.
I'm not faulting you for asking; don't get me wrong. I'm delighted—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
No, I appreciate that.
To that very point, in terms of the airlines collaborating with advocates like you, I'll ask the same question of Ms. Walkus.
Ms. Walkus, you spoke about the fact that you talked to someone, and it was the first time they'd ever talked to someone with a disability. It's shocking that that's the case.
We've heard the case being made for the CTA to be a better regulator and for the minister at the summit two months from now to look at some concrete action. All of that is absolutely necessary. What can the airlines do in addition to working better with advocates like you to get some practical solutions?
12:55 p.m.
National Chair, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Having advisers from the disability community is not the answer. One of the problems with advice is that they can take it or leave it. It doesn't empower the community of people with disabilities to bring forward the solutions or identify the barriers and expect them to change that. That doesn't happen. We've been doing this for decades and decades. This is not new.
All of these issues have been on the floor for every government since I remember back in the seventies. This has been sent to the next group, the next group, the next group. Here we are again, coming to you saying that not much has changed, because people are trying to find the least amount of effort, the lowest cost, to deal with what they perceive is the barrier. We are not at the table in power to say, no, that's not okay. We need to have an open discussion in public, as you're doing today, with us at the table asking them so they're on record with us. Otherwise the only place we have is the courts. Quite frankly, I'm 68 years old. Can we not just have a common-sense way of dealing with this?
The transition we need to make is.... Where something stops, there's a gap to the next piece, whether that's legislation, regulation, or who is responsible for what. The biggest issue is that there are no teeth in it. A fine of $100,000 to Air Canada is the cost of doing business. They're not going to change anything, and that money doesn't come back to the disability community. It goes in government coffers. How is that assisting us to move this forward? We are the poorest group, with the least amount of power, and yet every single case of movement forward has happened because the disability community has moved it forward.
With you, we can move it even further forward.
Thank you.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Thank you, and I'll say you look far younger than 68.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
One thing that has been fairly consistent in your comments, as well as Mr. Lepofsky's, is the inconsistencies in the treatment at airports and airlines. Could you, in the remaining seconds, comment on how that can be remedied?
12:55 p.m.
National Chair, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
You have to have oversight with teeth.
12:55 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
You have to have specific rules. Again, there are inconsistencies, in part because people don't tell us where to go if we want to get curbside assistance or have one-stop shopping. They don't have that hotline to call when you're at the airport. If you're trying to get the airport to go to a higher level to solve a problem that the front desk person can't solve—because they don't have authority—you can't find anyone. You need that one-stop shopping phone number with somebody with authority to fix it. You need these to be announced regularly. I think that if airline staff and airport staff heard those announcements—“If you have a disability-related complaint, call this number”—it will wake people up a little more to say they should do better.
I want to emphasize this. I'm going to gamble that a lot of the frustration I'm describing would be echoed by flight attendants and ground staff, because when I've talked to them about it, they've echoed that they've seen the same problems we have and that they as individuals find it enormously frustrating.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Lepofsky, and thank you, Mr. Muys.
Next we have Mr. Iacono.
M. Iacono, the floor is yours for five minutes, please.
March 19th, 2024 / 12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for joining us this morning.
I want to thank them for their very poignant remarks. It was also disturbing to hear them describe what they experienced on their journeys. It's unbelievable that, in 2024, passengers with accessibility needs can't get better service.
Mr. Lepofsky, you have been through a whole range of situations. I don't need to go into all your difficult experiences. I'm very disappointed to hear that they took place. I apologize on behalf of the government.
That said, can you share the simplest way to address this issue? Many measures should be taken. However, I would like you to identify a measure that could make a difference right now. You spoke of one‑stop service. Would this be an ideal solution?
You said that you had 19 recommendations. Did you base them on all your travel experiences, both in Canada and abroad?
Could you elaborate on this?
1 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
Thank you.
I'll tell you that we designed those based on our research and on feedback that we've been getting from people. As a community coalition, we get feedback on barriers all the time. We're called by the media about stories and are asked to comment on them and so on. It's kind of an aggregation of that and just travelling and looking around and trying to figure out what works.
Of course, my own personal experience is provided. I gave you illustrations from my life, not because I'm the only game in town or in any way important, but because they will make it come alive for you in a way that I think is especially compelling.
We've just tried to apply common sense, like offering this idea that if it's really hard to get from the front door at Pearson terminal 1 all the way through this phalanx of obstacles over a long distance to find where the check-in desk is—and there are so many—why don't you just have an entrance right inside the door? It's something that Air Canada did, then undid, and then redid but limited it as to who can use it. Again, you shouldn't—
1 p.m.
Chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance
That was just one example in a big airport. You might not need it in Ottawa, because it's a shorter distance to the counter, but in a bigger airport that would be an illustration of something that's good.
There isn't one solution alone, but what I will tell you about the 19 in our brief.... The one that I realize would require the most dramatic move is removing the accessibility mandate from the CTA and creating a new agency to deal with it. I realize that's a bigger fish to fry, but the other things in there are all, I'd propose, quite easy to do, and it's not just one of them—